Substitutions and timing

Discuss all things Wigan Warriors. Comments and opinions on all aspects of the club's performance are welcome.
homer s
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun May 30, 2010 3:17 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by homer s »

DaveO wrote:
No straw damn us wrote:It's been mentioned on another thread that Wane likes to make his substitutions on the twenty minute mark. It's my observation that most coaches also do unless forced by injury, so I suggest that we keep a track of all the tv games to see if it is a general trend or just a Wigan / Wane thing.
And as I mentioned in the other thread, this is a waste of time unless you know what was going on in the game at the time in terms of which team was on top, has a player had a knock etc.

The context within which the substitutions are made is key.

If you are on top taking players off because you hit the 20 minute marker is a bad move. If I recall correctly Wane did this more than once last season and I think the best example was a game v Hull.

Likewise if a prop needs a rest it doesn't mean it's a good idea to sub two at once.

Last season it was pretty apparent that we were going better with some players on the pitch than with others yet Wane doggedly stuck to his watch in keeping a combination on the pitch that wasn't working as well when it was crying out for a quick reversal of the subs.

I don't care when he makes a substitution so long as it is made with a bit of thought to the game situation and if it doesn't work he accepts it has not and sorts it out.
i dont remember the hull game, but i do remember wakefield at home. 20-0 up after 19 mins, 20 mins and subs are made, change front row.a few minutes later wakefield did the same. before half time we were losing 20-22.
i cannot fathom out why they need substituting exactly on 20 mins, if we're on top let in run a little longer.
DaveO
Posts: 15880
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:32 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by DaveO »

morley pie eater wrote:Incidentally, what's often missed in these discussions is that a major consideration is not which props are best in a particular game, but keeping the best props fresh for the end-of-season run-in.

A few years ago, Wane said that Jordan James was "doing a job" for him. That job involved playing 15 or 20 minutes most matches, then dropping out towards the end of the season. We may have done better in individual games by not playing JJ, but would probably not have got to the GF, as the main props would have been jaded later in the year.

I'd go so far as to suggest that our GFs won under Wane were more because we had the freshest props at the end of season than because we had the best team. Last year's injuries prevented us repeating that, with FPN, for example, playing every game.
I think you are giving him far too much credit in that basically, you just made that up! The idea he employed a mediocre player and in particular player JJ, to rest his best props is reading far to much into Wane's thinking.

However if you are right, it just reinforces the view the league games are not worth attending.
Panchitta Marra
Posts: 6134
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:24 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by Panchitta Marra »

southernpie wrote:
Panchitta Marra wrote:Would it be a decision between Wane and Bitcon to maximise players fitness levels and condition throughout the game.
Clubs do make like for like changes at similar periods of a game.
Just a thought.
As I said on the other thread each player is an individual so surely the best "change" time would differ from player to player.
I see what you are saying SP, but do you think our player interchanges are quite consistent with the starting pack and therefore the change time is set based on the fitness of those individuals coming off?
jobo
Posts: 3653
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 1:33 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by jobo »

Panchitta Marra wrote:
southernpie wrote:
Panchitta Marra wrote:Would it be a decision between Wane and Bitcon to maximise players fitness levels and condition throughout the game.
Clubs do make like for like changes at similar periods of a game.
Just a thought.
As I said on the other thread each player is an individual so surely the best "change" time would differ from player to player.
I see what you are saying SP, but do you think our player interchanges are quite consistent with the starting pack and therefore the change time is set based on the fitness of those individuals coming off?
Think that would be spot on PM. Reckon substitutions are made based on the facts presenting themselves to the coaching staff at the time they are made, rather than Wane being stubborn and set in his ways.
southernpie
Posts: 1184
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:04 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by southernpie »

jobo wrote:
Panchitta Marra wrote:
southernpie wrote: As I said on the other thread each player is an individual so surely the best "change" time would differ from player to player.
I see what you are saying SP, but do you think our player interchanges are quite consistent with the starting pack and therefore the change time is set based on the fitness of those individuals coming off?

Think that would be spot on PM. Reckon substitutions are made based on the facts presenting themselves to the coaching staff at the time they are made, rather than Wane being stubborn and set in his ways.
From what I have observed "in game time" over the last couple of seasons and stood out for me particularly with the injuries last season is that Waney and Bitcom presumedly study the players fitness etc during the preseason and at training and have a plan for the best time to make changes, but it seems to be done as a generalisation, rather than to "suit" each individual, the idea that the coaches at all the other sides do their changes at very similar times tends to support this theory.
With all the injuries we had last year, I would have expected the substitution times to have varied a lot more as some players would have been in better physical condition than others and would have been more effective for longer periods keeping the less effective player off the park for longer. That is not even considering tactical switches due to what is actually happening out there.
Conversely I think the "20 min" change is so regular, it can lead to the "viewer" thinking all the substitutions come at the same time unless forced.
IMO it does seem as if Waney cannot adapt very quickly when things start to go pear shaped, like at Wakey when Chester waited for us to change our front row and had saved his big men to put on at that time
This St Helens Defence is like a lollipopman at Brands Hatch -Ray French BBC TV Challenge Cup 1982



[img]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-55dq ... Botica.jpg [/img]

https://picasaweb.google.com/nogireman/ ... SDELRUGBY#
morley pie eater
Posts: 3219
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by morley pie eater »

DaveO wrote:
morley pie eater wrote:Incidentally, what's often missed in these discussions is that a major consideration is not which props are best in a particular game, but keeping the best props fresh for the end-of-season run-in.

A few years ago, Wane said that Jordan James was "doing a job" for him. That job involved playing 15 or 20 minutes most matches, then dropping out towards the end of the season. We may have done better in individual games by not playing JJ, but would probably not have got to the GF, as the main props would have been jaded later in the year.

I'd go so far as to suggest that our GFs won under Wane were more because we had the freshest props at the end of season than because we had the best team. Last year's injuries prevented us repeating that, with FPN, for example, playing every game.
I think you are giving him far too much credit in that basically, you just made that up! The idea he employed a mediocre player and in particular player JJ, to rest his best props is reading far to much into Wane's thinking.

However if you are right, it just reinforces the view the league games are not worth attending.
Course I made it up! It's what's called an opinion. Some opinions may be right, some wrong, some considered and some less so.

My point was more about Bitcon's influence, and to add to the discussion about subbing props that another consideration is keeping them fresh for the end of the season. If you'd rather pick on an example (of Jordan James) to play your usual tune about Wane being totally useless, that's up to you Dave.

I look forward to you applying for the coach's job when Wane goes. What fun it will be on this forum :lol:
. . . . . . ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
DaveO
Posts: 15880
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:32 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by DaveO »

morley pie eater wrote:
DaveO wrote:
morley pie eater wrote:Incidentally, what's often missed in these discussions is that a major consideration is not which props are best in a particular game, but keeping the best props fresh for the end-of-season run-in.

A few years ago, Wane said that Jordan James was "doing a job" for him. That job involved playing 15 or 20 minutes most matches, then dropping out towards the end of the season. We may have done better in individual games by not playing JJ, but would probably not have got to the GF, as the main props would have been jaded later in the year.

I'd go so far as to suggest that our GFs won under Wane were more because we had the freshest props at the end of season than because we had the best team. Last year's injuries prevented us repeating that, with FPN, for example, playing every game.
I think you are giving him far too much credit in that basically, you just made that up! The idea he employed a mediocre player and in particular player JJ, to rest his best props is reading far to much into Wane's thinking.

However if you are right, it just reinforces the view the league games are not worth attending.
Course I made it up! It's what's called an opinion. Some opinions may be right, some wrong, some considered and some less so.
Making stuff up does not constitute having an opinion.
My point was more about Bitcon's influence, and to add to the discussion about subbing props that another consideration is keeping them fresh for the end of the season. If you'd rather pick on an example (of Jordan James) to play your usual tune about Wane being totally useless, that's up to you Dave.

I look forward to you applying for the coach's job when Wane goes. What fun it will be on this forum :lol:
I presume you have heard of Godwin's law? That is Godwin's law is an Internet adage that asserts that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"???

I think we need one for the forum. "As a discussion about a coach grows longer, the probability that someone suggests they apply for the job approaches 1".

We could call it "Wanes's law" or the "Happy Clapper law".
No straw damn us
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:12 am

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by No straw damn us »

Just to get it back on track.
Lets see how the substitutions go in the first couple of tv games, and the Wigan game if anyone can be bothered taking note. I realise that it will not be possible to get anything completely accurate from just three games, but it may indicate a pattern. If we carry on with the "observations" for a couple of months we should see how teams rotate their players and how common the 20 minute rule is or isn't. Perhaps somebody with a bit of time could do a six sigma project around it. :D
moto748
Posts: 4583
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:30 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by moto748 »

No straw damn us wrote:Just to get it back on track.
Lets see how the substitutions go in the first couple of tv games, and the Wigan game if anyone can be bothered taking note. I realise that it will not be possible to get anything completely accurate from just three games, but it may indicate a pattern. If we carry on with the "observations" for a couple of months we should see how teams rotate their players and how common the 20 minute rule is or isn't. Perhaps somebody with a bit of time could do a six sigma project around it. :D
That's the only sensible thing you can say about it, really.

What's a six sigma project?
morley pie eater
Posts: 3219
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Substitutions and timing

Post by morley pie eater »

DaveO wrote:
morley pie eater wrote:
DaveO wrote: I think you are giving him far too much credit in that basically, you just made that up! The idea he employed a mediocre player and in particular player JJ, to rest his best props is reading far to much into Wane's thinking.

However if you are right, it just reinforces the view the league games are not worth attending.
Course I made it up! It's what's called an opinion. Some opinions may be right, some wrong, some considered and some less so.
Making stuff up does not constitute having an opinion.
My point was more about Bitcon's influence, and to add to the discussion about subbing props that another consideration is keeping them fresh for the end of the season. If you'd rather pick on an example (of Jordan James) to play your usual tune about Wane being totally useless, that's up to you Dave.

I look forward to you applying for the coach's job when Wane goes. What fun it will be on this forum :lol:
I presume you have heard of Godwin's law? That is Godwin's law is an Internet adage that asserts that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hitler approaches 1"???

I think we need one for the forum. "As a discussion about a coach grows longer, the probability that someone suggests they apply for the job approaches 1".

We could call it "Wanes's law" or the "Happy Clapper law".
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I think I may have succumbed to Shemilt's law (for teachers): "If the kids start throwing things, you're probably boring them."
. . . . . . ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Post Reply