Just a feeder club

Discuss all things Wigan Warriors. Comments and opinions on all aspects of the club's performance are welcome.
DaveO
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by DaveO »

The reasons the signings like that aren’t worthwhile is they are short termism. An easy option that clubs used in the past with overseas players who then stopped the progress into the first team of home grown players. Largely because few clubs could be bothered with an academy set up because they didn’t need one.

This is the same sort of thing.

There was a time when if you were a player at Wigan approaching 30 you stood a good chance of being replaced by a younger player. Constant improvement. I remember Brian Case who i tonight was a Rey good player getting moved on like this.

Recruiting such players because they are “good enough” and can still hack it is no excuse for not wanting to strive to improve.

It’s actually worse than that now as evidenced by Wigan giving Clubb a contract extension and showing no signs of trying to find a proper hooker.

Some fans wouldn’t care what standard of player they watched so long as their team won the GF or cup but for a lot of people the game today isn’t a patch on what it was even quite recently (something reinforced by Wigan putting all those videos of past games up for people to watch in lock down IMO). Signing players who ought be considering retirement just because the competition is weak enough so they can still play in it is never going to improved it.
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EagleEyePie
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by EagleEyePie »

DaveO wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:28 pm The reasons the signings like that aren’t worthwhile is they are short termism. An easy option that clubs used in the past with overseas players who then stopped the progress into the first team of home grown players. Largely because few clubs could be bothered with an academy set up because they didn’t need one.

This is the same sort of thing.

There was a time when if you were a player at Wigan approaching 30 you stood a good chance of being replaced by a younger player. Constant improvement. I remember Brian Case who i tonight was a Rey good player getting moved on like this.

Recruiting such players because they are “good enough” and can still hack it is no excuse for not wanting to strive to improve.

It’s actually worse than that now as evidenced by Wigan giving Clubb a contract extension and showing no signs of trying to find a proper hooker.

Some fans wouldn’t care what standard of player they watched so long as their team won the GF or cup but for a lot of people the game today isn’t a patch on what it was even quite recently (something reinforced by Wigan putting all those videos of past games up for people to watch in lock down IMO). Signing players who ought be considering retirement just because the competition is weak enough so they can still play in it is never going to improved it.
I disagree. 'Short-termism' might apply to a particular signing, or to poor recruitment policy overall, but not as a blanket term for signing any older player.

Ellis clearly wasn't a short term option for Hull if he played for them for 6 years. That's just a good signing.

You're suggesting that any signing of an older player is stopping the progress of a young home grown player. If that's the case then signing any player at all is stopping the progress of a young home grown player. Doesn't matter how old they are or where they come from. In fact, a young Wigan player right now would probably be happier having a 35 year old Sean O'Loughlin ahead of him than 26 year old John Bateman.

It literally has no bearing on whether a club is 'striving to improve'. And to be honest, it's not 'striving to improve' if a position is just given to a young home grown player instead of bringing in a potentially better player. You want an environment where players are aware that if a top player is leaving in their position it's not enough to simply be the next home grown player on the production line - they have to prove that they can be good enough. Plus, if a team doesn't have a young player coming through the academy that seems good enough, why would they go with them instead of bringing in someone else.

Just because a player has gone past the age of 30 doesn't mean they are no longer valuable. I admit that Clubb is a questionable one given his form and injuries, but ultimately with so many good young props having experienced players is going to be valuable. Props generally get better with age, and teams who rely too much on young forwards can struggle. The club is attempting to find a balance. It's not stopping Partington or Havard from coming through - the proof is that Clubb and Flower are both over 30 and Partington and Havard have been key players for us.

Clearly though, all clubs are still going to aim to sign players who will give them as many years as possible at the top of their game. It is going to be harder for players over 30 to find clubs. Clubs are still quite clearly looking for good young players and players in their prime. Older players are simply an option that they keep open.

That's not me saying that Wigan should be going out making offers for Benji Marshall or Cameron Smith (although I bet plenty would take Smith for next year if he was available) because their age doesn't matter. I'm saying that every year the club will approach recruitment with positions that need filling, identify the players who are available, and weigh up the pros and cons and sometimes the best fit might be a player from the NRL who is over 30. In the overwhelming majority of cases, it isn't.
moto748
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by moto748 »

Well said, EEP.
Rich5
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by Rich5 »

shaunedwardsfanclub wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:08 pm
nathan_rugby wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:41 am
ddtftf wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:29 am I am looking forward to seeing Hastings / French and Gildart 3 players that would make me buy a season ticket, then I felt depressed knowing that once again these three players will soon be gone to Australia and we are back to square once again on the merry go round of keeping an exciting team to watch . The only decent players we keep are the ones not wanted by the NRL sadly.
How do we avoid it?
IFL and KR need to come up with the answer.
.

I disagree with the notion that it's Ian Lenegans fault that this is happening you take into account the level Super League is at,when your a 22-24 year old playing in a lesser league you'd want to test yourself against the best in the sport.the main issue is the salary cap that clubs are working under and in this structure it's nigh on impossible to attract world class players to sign and also stay at your club,if big money could be offered for Billy Slater in his prime years or GI I'm his pomp etc. players would want to play with these players and be attracted to stay,i remember my father telling me about what it was like when John Ferguson and Brett Kenny signed for the club and the boost it gave the town and the club.i remember greats like Steve Renouf signing for us a world class origin player yet it seems now that Super League is just a safe haven for players with personal or disciplinary issues in Australia....no disrespect to Jackson Hastings but if he didn't have the issues in Australia he would be playing Super league at 25-26
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Mike
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by Mike »

There is no big money available though Rich5. There wasn't any before COVID and there certainly isn't any now. I doubt many clubs will even be paying up to the cap if the TV deal no longer covers it.
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DaveO
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by DaveO »

You're suggesting that any signing of an older player is stopping the progress of a young home grown player. If that's the case then signing any player at all is stopping the progress of a young home grown player. Doesn't matter how old they are or where they come from. In fact, a young Wigan player right now would probably be happier having a 35 year old Sean O'Loughlin ahead of him than 26 year old John Bateman.
I am sorry but that is nonsense. There is no issue with signing a 26 year old Bateman or equivalent in any position if the player Wigan sign is of the standard he is. That is in fact the point I am trying to make.

We didn't keep young wingers when Martin Offiah became available either. Who did Gary Connelly replace? It is exactly why the club should have replaced Powell at 9 by now. We don't have to wait for him to be 30 to realise we need to look elsewhere for a 9.

Lockers ought to have been laid out to grass about three years ago at least and the fact he wasn't is down to the fact the club didn't have or could not sign a replacement good enough due to lack of planning for his eventual and inevitable retirement. Not because at his age and with his injuries he can still hack it. He clearly can't given he spends about half the season unenviable due to injury.

The idea we need senior players like Clubb or Lockers on the pitch to guide the younger players around is nuts in my opinion. Lockers has obviously been a great player but if we need Clubb on the pitch still it's because like Locker's the succession planning was rubbish.
morley pie eater
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by morley pie eater »

An ode for Dave.

Powell must go!
Listen to Dave O
He's said it oft before
Through sun and rain and snow.

Fifty tackles in a game?
All third man in - it's such a shame.
So when we need someone to blame
We know just where to go.
. . . . . . ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
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Wormburner
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by Wormburner »

DaveO wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:01 am
You're suggesting that any signing of an older player is stopping the progress of a young home grown player. If that's the case then signing any player at all is stopping the progress of a young home grown player. Doesn't matter how old they are or where they come from. In fact, a young Wigan player right now would probably be happier having a 35 year old Sean O'Loughlin ahead of him than 26 year old John Bateman.
I am sorry but that is nonsense. There is no issue with signing a 26 year old Bateman or equivalent in any position if the player Wigan sign is of the standard he is. That is in fact the point I am trying to make.

We didn't keep young wingers when Martin Offiah became available either. Who did Gary Connelly replace? It is exactly why the club should have replaced Powell at 9 by now. We don't have to wait for him to be 30 to realise we need to look elsewhere for a 9.

Lockers ought to have been laid out to grass about three years ago at least and the fact he wasn't is down to the fact the club didn't have or could not sign a replacement good enough due to lack of planning for his eventual and inevitable retirement. Not because at his age and with his injuries he can still hack it. He clearly can't given he spends about half the season unenviable due to injury.

The idea we need senior players like Clubb or Lockers on the pitch to guide the younger players around is nuts in my opinion. Lockers has obviously been a great player but if we need Clubb on the pitch still it's because like Locker's the succession planning was rubbish.
Well said DaveO
Let's is a contraction of “let us.” You use it to make suggestions about what you and someone else should do. Let's is NOT a promise
Exiled Wiganer
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by Exiled Wiganer »

This argument only works if you think Powell and Club are hopeless. I can see it with Club, but I rate Powell. As a spine player, the question is what role we need from our 9 when we look at what our 1, 6, 7 and 13 offers. There is no point having 5 runners, 5 grafters, 5 ball players. With runners 1 and 6, an organiser like Smith at 7 and a creative/damaging 13, Powell works well. He just needs to move the ball in the right direction, run and kick adequately now and again and make a lot of tackles. Which is what he does. I can’t see any problem with that.
He’s no Clark or Smith, but he doesn’t have to be in a spine of French, Hastings, Harry Smith and Lockers (or Bateman next year).
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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: Just a feeder club

Post by Wigan_forever1985 »

Exiled Wiganer wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:15 pm This argument only works if you think Powell and Club are hopeless. I can see it with Club, but I rate Powell. As a spine player, the question is what role we need from our 9 when we look at what our 1, 6, 7 and 13 offers. There is no point having 5 runners, 5 grafters, 5 ball players. With runners 1 and 6, an organiser like Smith at 7 and a creative/damaging 13, Powell works well. He just needs to move the ball in the right direction, run and kick adequately now and again and make a lot of tackles. Which is what he does. I can’t see any problem with that.
He’s no Clark or Smith, but he doesn’t have to be in a spine of French, Hastings, Harry Smith and Lockers (or Bateman next year).
I see a lot of holes here for a starter Hasting 90% wont be here next year, lockers 100% shouldnt be here this year French is an xfactor player and does not glue the spine, smith is not ready to shoulder the weight of chief organiser and bateman isnt a spine player he is not a ball playing forward.

The issue is with Powell he is now like he was at the start a makeshift 9, the equivalent of driving a car with a space saving wheel - yes it will still get you from A to B but its not ideal and you should still look to replace it when you can.

Wigans recruitment baffles me, im not saying we have signed overly poor players - in fact we have made some really good signings, example Hardaker/French/Escare - problem is they all were for the same position. And this is it we haven't had an actual hooker playing in the squad since Micky Mac left unless you count the young lad Amir.

Personally i dont see how anyone can be ok with having what everyone seems to admit is an average player in a position which touches the ball more than any other player on the pitch
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure
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