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Defence, what defence.
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:55 am
by ian.birchall
Our last USP seems to have gone belly up if you look at our points conceded column compared to the Wire and Stains.
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:25 pm
by morley pie eater
ian.birchall wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:55 am
Our last USP seems to have gone belly up if you look at our points conceded column compared to the Wire and Stains.
It's been a myth for a while, Ian, not just because of one match v HKR. I think our line defence, and attitude (esp Smithies, Byrne, Partington) help sustain the myth - and being in the notes Eddie left for the Sky commentary team helps too.
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:16 pm
by EagleEyePie
I wouldn't say our defence being strong has been a myth for a while. Before lockdown we had the joint 2nd best defence in Super League, conceding 13.7 points per game which is about what you'd expect for a good side. We were tied with Wire and doing better than Saints and Catalans.
Since the return we have the 4th best defence in Super League but are conceding around 22 points per game. It's a big difference but all teams except Saints, Wire and Catalans are conceding more points per game and with most of them it's considerably more.
That might suggest we've simply settled into mediocrity since the restart but there's something to be concerned about. All those teams with massively weaker defensive records, except for Salford, have played at least one of the 3 top scoring sides (Saints, Wire, Catalans) and been battered by them. There are also several of them that have been suffering with numerous injuries or covid-related absences.
Saints, Wire, Catalans and Salford have scored the most points since the restart by some distance and we're yet to play any of them. That suggests our defensive figures are skewed a little and we could be in for a reality check in the coming weeks. It also shows that while our average points per game has remained relatively stable (23 ppg before lockdown, 25 since the restart) we've been playing sides that are losing by massive scores to the 'Big 3', yet we're not putting the same number of points past them. That suggests our attack is probably weaker than it was before lockdown.
The upcoming games are going to be a massive indicator of how competitive we are this year. We've been picking up wins since the restart but we'll learn pretty quickly if we're in a false position.
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:38 pm
by Firestarter
Good stats and points....... regardless of how bad we were on thursday i still will back us to beat cats....... just a few tweaks here and there
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:11 am
by Wes
We where the last to restart training, due to wage renegotiations, so our fitness is lacking where as we’d had a great pre season and started great because we where fitter than most pre covid.
Not sure the 6 again suits us either as we’ve always had a bit of niggle in defence and we don’t have and have rarely had a real go forward hooker.
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Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:57 pm
by moto748
EEP>
Surely the other thing the figures point to is that the changes to the rules themselves have encouraged attacking play once sides get on a roll, and made it harder for defenders. So, as you say, the sides with better attacks, like Saints, have made hay.
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:16 pm
by jackthelad
Is the future of the current game how many points can you score?
We were going to be the Real Madrid of league with a fast flowing new exciting brand of attacking rugby so we can score loads of points
I'm sure it was something along those lines what Lam said.....?
Maybe Lam's forgotten, defence wins games
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:20 pm
by ian.birchall
Wes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:11 am
We where the last to restart training, due to wage renegotiations, so our fitness is lacking where as we’d had a great pre season and started great because we where fitter than most pre covid.
Not sure the 6 again suits us either as we’ve always had a bit of niggle in defence and we don’t have and have rarely had a real go forward hooker.
Good point about the delayed restart for the team.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 pm
by pedro
ian.birchall wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:20 pm
Wes wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:11 am
We where the last to restart training, due to wage renegotiations, so our fitness is lacking where as we’d had a great pre season and started great because we where fitter than most pre covid.
Not sure the 6 again suits us either as we’ve always had a bit of niggle in defence and we don’t have and have rarely had a real go forward hooker.
Good point about the delayed restart for the team.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
id agree but that was weeks ago so should make no difference now as they should be upto speed with match fitness
Re: Defence, what defence.
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:50 pm
by morley pie eater
EagleEyePie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:16 pm
I wouldn't say our defence being strong has been a myth for a while. Before lockdown we had the joint 2nd best defence in Super League, conceding 13.7 points per game which is about what you'd expect for a good side. We were tied with Wire and doing better than Saints and Catalans.
Since the return we have the 4th best defence in Super League but are conceding around 22 points per game. It's a big difference but all teams except Saints, Wire and Catalans are conceding more points per game and with most of them it's considerably more.
That might suggest we've simply settled into mediocrity since the restart but there's something to be concerned about. All those teams with massively weaker defensive records, except for Salford, have played at least one of the 3 top scoring sides (Saints, Wire, Catalans) and been battered by them. There are also several of them that have been suffering with numerous injuries or covid-related absences.
Saints, Wire, Catalans and Salford have scored the most points since the restart by some distance and we're yet to play any of them. That suggests our defensive figures are skewed a little and we could be in for a reality check in the coming weeks. It also shows that while our average points per game has remained relatively stable (23 ppg before lockdown, 25 since the restart) we've been playing sides that are losing by massive scores to the 'Big 3', yet we're not putting the same number of points past them. That suggests our attack is probably weaker than it was before lockdown.
The upcoming games are going to be a massive indicator of how competitive we are this year. We've been picking up wins since the restart but we'll learn pretty quickly if we're in a false position.
EEP, I usually agree with your posts and you make some good points in this one. However, there's one thing missing from your analysis.
"Before lockdown" we played just 7 games:
First up were Wire, a low scoring game (W 16-10) but, as season opener, hardly worth reading much into it.
We lost 12-16 to Cas, beat Toronto (!), beat Hull who were in disarray, then Huddersfield, then Hull KR, then lost to Salford.
I'd suggest that stats about defence, or anything else, in 7 matches, need to be interpreted with a health warning.
Four of the 7 teams, including one we lost to, were struggling. A better comparison would be how many we conceded against each team compared with their a average points scored.
