21-man squad vs Leeds

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Charriots Offiah
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Re: 21-man squad vs Leeds

Post by Charriots Offiah » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:29 am

up the junction wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:51 pm
Lulus crap kicking game is killing us.
He’s finished. Play Harry Smith.
[/quote]
What about Powell’s kicking ?
4 th tackle straight down there throats.
No one to blame but Lam .
[/quote]

We have not had a decent kicker since Sam Tomkins left.

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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: 21-man squad vs Leeds

Post by Wigan_forever1985 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:37 am

Powell’s game in general is an issue in these types of matches - I know people will just accuse me of Powell hating but like I said through this thread when you’re struggling for meters what you do from dummy half is so important to break the defensive momentum

Teams know Powell will very rarely run from dummy half - and they know if he does he is got to be one of the slowest players on the pitch so there’s no worry about being tight around the ruck so they can spread out and set

Also we almost never pass flat to a running prop most of the time we are passing 10 yards backward most often the pass is slow so the defence have already made 5-10 yards closing before our players have received the ball and are running

One of the reasons saints props do so well is they get on a roll off the quick potb - roby often creates that momentum by running the ball before passing he makes himself an active threat the defence have to account for then once he’s started to pull the defenders tight to the ruck area he will pass so his props are running at an unsettled defence

Teams playing us can man mark our drives easily because Powell offers absolutely nothing from dummy half (and please don’t start talking about the few crash tries he’s scored this year his concrete feet aren’t an issue then)

It can’t be unstated how a good hooker can help with momentum and we cannot generate it from dummy half so we rely on french or Hastings or smith to do something

This is admittedly 1 element of the issues we have but we need an acknowledgement that we need some spark at dummy half to change up games and we simply don’t have it
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure

josie andrews
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Re: 21-man squad vs Leeds

Post by josie andrews » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:50 am

pedro wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:57 pm
Lazy J wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:35 pm
When was the last time we were nilled twice in a row?
I was thinking that
2005! Same opposition in reverse order!

V Leeds 70 - nil

V Saints 75 - nil

I was at both games ☹️
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
that takes a lot of courage.

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EagleEyePie
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Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:42 pm

Re: 21-man squad vs Leeds

Post by EagleEyePie » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:17 am

Wigan_forever1985 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:37 am
Powell’s game in general is an issue in these types of matches - I know people will just accuse me of Powell hating but like I said through this thread when you’re struggling for meters what you do from dummy half is so important to break the defensive momentum

Teams know Powell will very rarely run from dummy half - and they know if he does he is got to be one of the slowest players on the pitch so there’s no worry about being tight around the ruck so they can spread out and set

Also we almost never pass flat to a running prop most of the time we are passing 10 yards backward most often the pass is slow so the defence have already made 5-10 yards closing before our players have received the ball and are running

One of the reasons saints props do so well is they get on a roll off the quick potb - roby often creates that momentum by running the ball before passing he makes himself an active threat the defence have to account for then once he’s started to pull the defenders tight to the ruck area he will pass so his props are running at an unsettled defence

Teams playing us can man mark our drives easily because Powell offers absolutely nothing from dummy half (and please don’t start talking about the few crash tries he’s scored this year his concrete feet aren’t an issue then)

It can’t be unstated how a good hooker can help with momentum and we cannot generate it from dummy half so we rely on french or Hastings or smith to do something

This is admittedly 1 element of the issues we have but we need an acknowledgement that we need some spark at dummy half to change up games and we simply don’t have it
I agree that getting out from dummy half and engaging the line is essential, and that's it's something that Powell needs to do to play at his best, I disagree that he or his style of play was an issue in this game.

Some might see it as a chicken and the egg situation, but for me a hooker can only really play their best and get out from dummy half on the back of dominant carries. They can then influence the play and generate a bit of momentum by engaging the line and really getting the forwards on a roll, but a hooker stepping out from dummy half on the back of poor carries isn't going to get you anywhere.

An example of this would be Daryl Clark's performance yesterday. He's one of the most frequent runners from dummy half yet against Salford his dummy half runs were few and far between. That's not because he played badly, or decided he wouldn't play how he usually plays, but because he runs when he sees an opportunity, either for himself or another player, and Salford defended so well and the conditions made the game so tight that those opportunities didn't present themselves.

I don't agree that Powell offers nothing from dummy half but do think that he sometimes limits his effectiveness by not getting out from behind the ruck like most modern day hookers seem to. He added that to his game last year, his attacking play improved a lot and so did the teams performances. This year he's been inconsistent on that front. Sometimes he just seems to have reverted to type and is content to just pick and pass from behind the ruck. Sometimes he hasn't needed to do more than that (against Catalans for example), but other times he's had good games by getting himself involved a bit more from dummy half (e.g. the Wakefield game).

There are parts of his game that can be predictable and we can lose a threat because of that, and maybe that's why Lam seems keen to get Hastings in at hooker during games too, as he plays that role differently, but I don't think one of our biggest issues against Leeds was Powell at dummy half. He had little to work with just like all our playmakers because our head down, straight up carries were hugely ineffective.

Wintergreen
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Re: 21-man squad vs Leeds

Post by Wintergreen » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:36 am

I agree.

Powell isn't a Roby or Smith, but he is decent enough.

Our problem was lack of tactics and lack of grunt up front.

moto748
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Re: 21-man squad vs Leeds

Post by moto748 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:03 am

Wigan_forever1985 wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:37 am
roby often creates that momentum by running the ball before passing he makes himself an active threat the defence have to account for then once he’s started to pull the defenders tight to the ruck area he will pass so his props are running at an unsettled defence

And yet I've read reams of criticism on here of Josh Hodgson for doing just that.

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