Clubb suspended

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Wintergreen
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by Wintergreen »

Mike wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:20 am
DaveO wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:04 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
The burden of proof is always on the party asserting the allegation, is it not?
Beyond reasonable doubt is the term I believe. That doesn’t always mean there is (and never has meant) incontrovertible evidence (though of course it’s preferable if there is). It means taking everything into account is it safe to assume guilt?

This happens all the time as it did here. Clubb clearly said something, the opposition player reacted and reported it. The QC will have put all this and whatever other information he had together to form an opinion. For all we know Clubb may even have admitted it but even if he didn’t it’s far from strange he was found guilty.
He did admit it based on the report from the tribunal. So that's fairly certain then!
Did he? Why this quote then

" reasonably satisfied, taking into account the seriousness of the charge, that the words were said"
Wintergreen
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by Wintergreen »

DaveO wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:04 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
Mike wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:22 pm

If they'd deemed this to be not worth a suspension, what would that decision have been taken on? Certainty?
The burden of proof is always on the party asserting the allegation, is it not?
Beyond reasonable doubt is the term I believe. That doesn’t always mean there is (and never has meant) incontrovertible evidence (though of course it’s preferable if there is). It means taking everything into account is it safe to assume guilt?

This happens all the time as it did here. Clubb clearly said something, the opposition player reacted and reported it. The QC will have put all this and whatever other information he had together to form an opinion. For all we know Clubb may even have admitted it but even if he didn’t it’s far from strange he was found guilty.
Absolutely not! It means that any doubt that the person is guilty is unreasonable one. That's a very different thing.


That said if Mike is right and he admitted it, I am totally confused with the quotes that have been supplied.
Charriots Offiah
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by Charriots Offiah »

Mike wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:17 am
fozzieskem wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:04 pm
Mike wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:19 pm

The sport should only take action on racism if that action solves the issue? Just do nothing at all until then?
At first it was effective but much like,for instance the ice bucket challenge do it too often and it’s effect is lessened which is clearly happening.

It has to evolve and try to keep ahead of the curve because wether you believe it or not sport has tackled racism and tackled it well compared to the doom days of the 70s and ‘80’s,is it perfect no of course it isn’t but as I say the issue is much bigger than another “fad” (and I use that term because I can’t think of a better one”.
So what should the sport do then?
It’s a waste of time the sport doing anything if our leaders cannot walk the walk. It might help if they set an example. The last time I looked they didn’t get treated as harshly as Clubb, what does that say about our society?
morley pie eater
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by morley pie eater »

"There is only one civil standard of proof and that is proof that the fact in issue more probably occurred than not: Re H (Minors)(Sexual Abuse: Standard of Proof) [1996] AC 563, per Lord Hoffmann"

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/l ... hild-1.htm
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Mike
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by Mike »

Charriots Offiah wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:12 pm
Mike wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:17 am
fozzieskem wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:04 pm

At first it was effective but much like,for instance the ice bucket challenge do it too often and it’s effect is lessened which is clearly happening.

It has to evolve and try to keep ahead of the curve because wether you believe it or not sport has tackled racism and tackled it well compared to the doom days of the 70s and ‘80’s,is it perfect no of course it isn’t but as I say the issue is much bigger than another “fad” (and I use that term because I can’t think of a better one”.
So what should the sport do then?
It’s a waste of time the sport doing anything if our leaders cannot walk the walk. It might help if they set an example. The last time I looked they didn’t get treated as harshly as Clubb, what does that say about our society?
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Mike
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by Mike »

Wintergreen wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:49 am
DaveO wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:04 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
From:
The burden of proof is always on the party asserting the allegation, is it not?
Beyond reasonable doubt is the term I believe. That doesn’t always mean there is (and never has meant) incontrovertible evidence (though of course it’s preferable if there is). It means taking everything into account is it safe to assume guilt?

This happens all the time as it did here. Clubb clearly said something, the opposition player reacted and reported it. The QC will have put all this and whatever other information he had together to form an opinion. For all we know Clubb may even have admitted it but even if he didn’t it’s far from strange he was found guilty.
Absolutely not! It means that any doubt that the person is guilty is unreasonable one. That's a very different thing.


That said if Mike is right and he admitted it, I am totally confused with the quotes that have been supplied.
From: https://www.totalrl.com/wigan-issue-sta ... ony-clubb/
The Club also accepts Judge Kearl’s findings that “Tony Clubb is not a racist, but on this occasion, he used unacceptable language in the heat of the moment”.

“During the RFL investigation, character references were provided by other players and coaches at Wigan, including head coach, Adrian Lam, and club captain, Thomas Leuluai, providing full support to the Judge’s findings that Tony Clubb is not a racist. The Club also recognises that Tony has expressed remorse for the comments he made and understands that they are unacceptable."
Looks like he admitted it but provided evidence to say he's not racist, it was a spur of the moment thing.
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Mike
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by Mike »

morley pie eater wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:03 am I'd say that the discussion here shows that,assuming we're representative, Wigan supporters are overwhelmingly non-racist.

Yes, our views differ from "sack Clubb" to "Savelio should just ignore", but nowhere have I read a post that comes across even as closet racism.
There's one right there.
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jobo
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by jobo »

josie andrews wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:37 pm
jobo wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 6:27 pm
josie andrews wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 7:41 am
Josie, not having a go at you and I understand your views but who has ever said you can't fly the Union flag or England flag?

Is it just that you feel if you were to do so, you would be singled out?
No offence, but a few years ago councils stopped flying the flag because it caused offence & I heard about a few people where they had to take down our national flags.

A new ruling where all public buildings are to fly the Union Flag at all times was only updated in March this year.

Anyway this is going off topic. Hope you are well John 😊
The only thing I could find was an article in the Daily Mail from 2013.

Don't think anyone was ever banned or advised not to fly the flag, so to speak.

As you say, we're way off topic.

I'm very well thank you, thanks for asking 👍👍. Hope you're keeping well also.
pemps
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by pemps »

jobo wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:39 pmThe only thing I could find was an article in the Daily Mail from 2013.

Don't think anyone was ever banned or advised not to fly the flag, so to speak.

As you say, we're way off topic.

I'm very well thank you, thanks for asking 👍👍. Hope you're keeping well also.
No surprise there then.
fozzieskem
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Re: Clubb suspended

Post by fozzieskem »

Mike wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:17 am
fozzieskem wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:04 pm
Mike wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 1:19 pm

The sport should only take action on racism if that action solves the issue? Just do nothing at all until then?
At first it was effective but much like,for instance the ice bucket challenge do it too often and it’s effect is lessened which is clearly happening.

It has to evolve and try to keep ahead of the curve because wether you believe it or not sport has tackled racism and tackled it well compared to the doom days of the 70s and ‘80’s,is it perfect no of course it isn’t but as I say the issue is much bigger than another “fad” (and I use that term because I can’t think of a better one”.
So what should the sport do then?
Educate,educate and more education,I was listening to the 40/20 podcast and Phil Caplin put forward something which I think it’s much better than a ban and that’s for the two of them to get together and talk about the incident,(well worth a listen as he puts it across far better than I )

Meaningless slogans because it’s the latest hip and trendy way to do it isn’t working it never has,education works and has been working just not,perhaps as fast as we’d all like
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