Halfs

[josie andrews]

It’s also the inability to link well with forwards so they can hit the ball at pace, receive it near the gain line and at the right angles.

I feel our forwards, mostly anyway, are always too close to whoever passes to them & rarely run on to a pass, they’re flat footed so hardly ever make any yards forwards. That’s my opinion anyway

[the pieman]

IMO this is *really* overstating things. You're saying that the entire future of the team is determined by the choice of a single player. Yes, the forwards set the platform (well they do on tackles 3 and 4 - its the wings/centres that set the platform for that and the hooker is not involved) and the hooker controls that phase, but in general tackles 5 and 6 are back line dominated moves, so surely the composition of the backline influences that? They have a more difficult job to make an impact with slow ball, but they still can.

I'm surprised the following objections to this formation haven't come up, as they've been mentioned a lot in the past.
* Cust has been criticized for weak defense, and we're saying we need him in the middles significantly increasing his defensive duties
* Field has been criticized for being a poor at stand-off

I think throwing Hampshire into the mix is a realistic option in future, but because of injury it isn't yet, and not for the foreseeable. I also don't think saying the problem is past recruitment helps this discussion (no matter how correct that might be in hindsight), because we are where we are this season, and we're talking about how to get the most out of this squad.

I supposed I just have to understand that we're so focused on Powell specifically, that all thread must be about him and only him...

No, but it is critical if we want French and Field to be receiving good ball, with options and not being battered by the opposition defence. I purposely, other than agreeing Martin Dermott is the best hooker i've seen at Wigan, havent named Powell, i've said hooker or no9. We need someone to be able to deliver good quality ball for either the current setup or any proposed changes to that setup to be effective.

I agree tackles 1 and 2 are mainly wing or centre picking up and taking the ball up, especially if its in our own 20m area. tackles 3 & 4 are still reliant on a good ball from the hooker. a slow POTB, and poor slow ball, means the taking the ball flat / immediately into a line of defenders and no real metre gains, thus impacting on tackle 5 & 6 options too.

so whilst i wasnt saying we are wholly reliant on one person, that one person, our no 9 is critical to the speed that we play and the quality that we with, and the ability to unlock the potential of others in the team

Fair enough. I accept that hooker is an important position regardless of who's in the halves.

However do you think we'd be better, slightly or otherwise removing Cust from the halves and shifting field and french. Personally I think we would but it may take some time to bed in and we would have to persevere with it through some rough games where it doesn't click before we get to a sweet spot.

i've just watched the full 80 v Hudds

one thing that was noticeable when we made the change with Cust to 9 and Field to 6, was Field running the ball and directly at the defensive line. that was a big difference to either of the current halves and he made some good yardage off the back of it

i dont know whether taking Cust off after 10 mins was intentional or not, but the initial swap had certainly made a change in the flow of the game and put Wigan on the front foot

[Wigan_forever1985]

In response to Morley

I assume (feel free to correct me) you’ve looked simply at dummy half runs not dummy half runs made by a hooker

It would be expect that poorer teams would have more scoots as wingers/centres scooting is common place on a exit set from your own 20 in which most teams who are losing games will do

I think this is a good point - what is that stat exactly?

However, not withstanding that potential flaw, the stat that we finished second wouldn't change.

Question, If Powell, as we've established beyond doubt on this thread, is the only/main reason why the 9, 6, 7, 13 spine will succeed/fail; and he is the worst hooker in SL (which is very often claimed he would not get in any other team ahead of their current hooker, whoever that might be) - then how did we finish above 10 of them and win the cup? I just don't understand it.

Maybe having a good 6, 7, 13, 1 2, 3, 4 ... etc actually is important too? And maybe it does matter which position they play in to have the most effective team possible independently of the hooking personnel?

And maybe we could talk about half backs in a thread entitled "Halfs", and not immediately talk about Powell?

But maybe not.

So we won the cup because Powell didnt play in the key game - if Powell had played against saints i doubt we would have won

I dont think its a case of him being the only reason the spine will fail but if you look at Wigans spine you can pretty much take 13 out now as since lockers we havent had a spine 13 its just a forward to us.

as a half back (having played there myself) you need a few things to perform at you best one of the main things is getting the ball quick. So if youre cust or smith you need the ball in your hand early ideally with a retreating or just set line. This is what Saints have done for years and years that wave that comes at you attacking around the ruck until flinging it out.

If i get a pass that i have to adjust to take and its slow coming out by the time i receive it the defensive line is already up and in my face so its much harder to make my play.

I wouldnt say Powell is the worst hooker in the league - he is very much the same as Matty Smith was - he is just far far too slow. Defensively this doesnt cause issue for him, he also will rarely make mistakes but thats because he rarely is doing anything at speed or on the edge. If wigan got shut he would end up at a team thats on the border of superleague, so leigh/widnes/featherstone

its not that our halfs cant perform with Powell in the team its tha he makes everything for the team that much harder - thats why we rely heavily on French/Field to provide something magical.

[morley pie eater]

Let me introduce myself

First sentence looks like you've come over all Mick Jagger Morley! Are you a man of wealth and taste?

I certainly am! I lay traps for troubadours, who get killed before they reach Bombay

[morley pie eater]

In response to Morley

I assume (feel free to correct me) you’ve looked simply at dummy half runs not dummy half runs made by a hooker

It would be expect that poorer teams would have more scoots as wingers/centres scooting is common place on a exit set from your own 20 in which most teams who are losing games will do

I think this is a good point - what is that stat exactly?

However, not withstanding that potential flaw, the stat that we finished second wouldn't change.

Question, If Powell, as we've established beyond doubt on this thread, is the only/main reason why the 9, 6, 7, 13 spine will succeed/fail; and he is the worst hooker in SL (which is very often claimed he would not get in any other team ahead of their current hooker, whoever that might be) - then how did we finish above 10 of them and win the cup? I just don't understand it.

Maybe having a good 6, 7, 13, 1 2, 3, 4 ... etc actually is important too? And maybe it does matter which position they play in to have the most effective team possible independently of the hooking personnel?

And maybe we could talk about half backs in a thread entitled "Halfs", and not immediately talk about Powell?

But maybe not.

So we won the cup because Powell didnt play in the key game - if Powell had played against saints i doubt we would have won

I dont think its a case of him being the only reason the spine will fail but if you look at Wigans spine you can pretty much take 13 out now as since lockers we havent had a spine 13 its just a forward to us.

as a half back (having played there myself) you need a few things to perform at you best one of the main things is getting the ball quick. So if youre cust or smith you need the ball in your hand early ideally with a retreating or just set line. This is what Saints have done for years and years that wave that comes at you attacking around the ruck until flinging it out.

If i get a pass that i have to adjust to take and its slow coming out by the time i receive it the defensive line is already up and in my face so its much harder to make my play.

I wouldnt say Powell is the worst hooker in the league - he is very much the same as Matty Smith was - he is just far far too slow. Defensively this doesnt cause issue for him, he also will rarely make mistakes but thats because he rarely is doing anything at speed or on the edge. If wigan got shut he would end up at a team thats on the border of superleague, so leigh/widnes/featherstone

its not that our halfs cant perform with Powell in the team its tha he makes everything for the team that much harder - thats why we rely heavily on French/Field to provide something magical.

The stats are for total dummy runs for each team over a season. The conclusion from a pretty strong negative correlation is that, for whatever reason, teams towards the bottom of the league clearly tend to utilise dummy runs more than teams at the top.

The stats are not meant to show cause and effect (eg "because they're struggling, they scoot more" or "they're struggling because they scoot more").

Nor do the stats differentiate between scoots from different players.

My personal conclusion would be that successful coaches, or coaches whose teams are successful, don't employ as many dummy runs in their game plan as the less successful coaches do. In the case of last season this would apply to Kristian Woolf, Matty Peet, and McBanana in particular.

But a statistician presents his findings and leaves others to draw conclusions. So Mike - the "potential flaw" is in the interpretation or assumed interpretation, not in the stats. These clearly show an indisputable link between number of Dummy Runs and league position.

[medlocke]

Let me introduce myself by way of explanation. I was a Maths teacher, I taught A-level Maths and Further Maths for 20 years. Though I'm retired, occasionally I get the urge to get my pen and paper out and do a few calculations.
I'm not boasting about my qualifications, but thought I may need to set the scene for what follows.

A recent poster claimed (as others have) that we need a 9 who runs from dummy half more, as not doing makes us too predictable. Above is my first response, but once I start on statistics, I like to do it proper.

To be fair and accurate, I needed stats for a full season as, with only 5 games played this year, results could be skewed by who has played who. So I took the 2022 season's figures. I compared a "league table" based on how many dummy runs each team made, with their actual league position at the end of the 2022 season.

With me so far? Right, here we go:

Posn . .Team . . DR . .League Posn.

1. Hull KR . . . .469 . . .8th
2. Warringt'n . . 316 . . .11th
3. Toulouse . . .313. . . 12th
4. Leeds. . . . .288 . . . .5th
5. Hudd'fd . . . .277 . . . .3rd
6. Salford . . . . .275 . . . .6th
7. Wakef'd . . . . 271. . . .10th
8. Hull. . . . . . 264 . . . .9th
9. Castlef'd . . . . 240. . . . 7th
10. Saints. . . . . .184. . . . .1st
11. Catalans. . . . .164 . . . 4th
12. Wigan. . . . . 137. . . . .2nd

This represents a "negative correlation", meaning that it is more likely that a team with a low number of Dummy Runs (DR) finished higher in the league, and a team with more DR finished lower.

It's easy to see this if you note that the 3 teams with least DR finished 1,2, and 4 in the league. Meanwhile Toulouse, with twice as many DR as these 3 averaged, finished bottom. Hull KR, who made a phenomenal 3-and-a-half times as many DR as Wigan, finished 8th.

I'm sure that every SL coach will be aware of these data. As Wayne Bennett said, “If you start listening to the fans, it won’t be long until you are sitting next to them.”

[Added notes for the technically minded:

1. Spearman's rank correlation coefficient, r = -0.60839.
r = 1 would indicate a perfect match, so the top team would have most DRs and the bottom team least etc.
r = -1 indicates a perfect negative match, so the top team has least DRs and the bottom team most.

2. The figure does not prove that there is a link. ie I'm not saying that doing more/less DRs makes you a worse/better team. For example, the negative correlation could be because top teams are more confident in their other plays and don't feel the need to run for dummy half quite so much. Or there may be no reason at all. The reasons for the link are for the experts to decide, but the link is clear.

What it does show is that there certainly ISN'T a positive link - that if you do more DRs you'll be a better team.]

First sentence looks like you've come over all Mick Jagger Morley! Are you a man of wealth and taste?

He's been around for a long, long years

[LancashireRed]

Just watching our halves this year and at times it feels as though they don't organise a great deal and dominate games. Smith and Cust can both kick well, but neither really make a great deal of line breaks. We need our 7 to be organising and the 6 running at the line causing hovoc. The Wigan 1-5 is decent, surely if our 6 & 7 are more direct in attack we will be more effective going forward than the last two games and score points. It is concerning that some fans prefer Cust as a 9 (He does like to run from the play of the ball), his job is to be a 6, start and create attacks bringing the centres and Field into the line, unleashing our strike players. Do Wigan fans feel our 6/7 do enough with the ball in hand in terms of attack; line breaks, assists, etc. Wigan need their 6/7 to be direct and build momentum in games - sometimes it feels like they are going through set plays until Field hits the line trying to make something happen.

[doc]

We need the halves to play as a pair, rather than split. It's far easier for the defence to snuff out one play maker either side of the field. Full back can still come into the line as well.

[Wigan_forever1985]

We need the halves to play as a pair, rather than split. It's far easier for the defence to snuff out one play maker either side of the field. Full back can still come into the line as well.

I split halves can work if you have a roaming fullback

[LancashireRed]

Just watching our halves this year and at times it feels as though they don't organise a great deal and dominate games. Smith and Cust can both kick well, but neither really make a great deal of line breaks. We need our 7 to be organising and the 6 running at the line causing hovoc. The Wigan 1-5 is decent, surely if our 6 & 7 are more direct in attack we will be more effective going forward than the last two games and score points. It is concerning that some fans prefer Cust as a 9 (He does like to run from the play of the ball), his job is to be a 6, start and create attacks bringing the centres and Field into the line, unleashing our strike players. Do Wigan fans feel our 6/7 do enough with the ball in hand in terms of attack; line breaks, assists, etc. Wigan need their 6/7 to be direct and build momentum in games - sometimes it feels like they are going through set plays until Field hits the line trying to make something happen.

If you look at the stats, it looks like Smith is carrying the team from a halves perspective. He has 7 try assists and is top for attacking kicks. He's never going to be top of clean breaks etc, but this season he is our most effective half. Cust needs to up his game or we try Field at 6 and use Cust as an impact hooker, we need more from him if he remains at 6.