Halfs

[PJC]

Slightly off topic but maybe the term hooker should now be dropped. The art of hooking is long gone.

[Barney841]

Anyone else think we play better with cust at 9 and jai in the half's with bevan at fullback?

For me it means bevans more involved in the game and at the same time they are both attacking the line in influencal positions?

And also Powell is on the bench, he offers nothing in attack and the opposite team know he's always going to pass and never go himself.

19 runs from dummy half so far this season must be a case of "lies, damn lies and statistics" I guess?

If that’s correct he’s beat last seasons runs already!!

[Mike]

to an extent hooker is critical in any formation. If Cust (or AN other hooker) can get good quality ball out at pace, then it makes a massive difference to the way the tackles can play out

if they are too slow, then it doesnt matter how else you setup then there is a good chance that the defence is going to be in your face / smashing you backwards

Martin Dermott was the best hooker I’ve seen at Wigan. The crispness, quality and timing of his passes were exemplary. Martin wasn’t a running 9 but his distribution made a massive difference to the team.

Our issues come down to poor recruitment. If anyone had watched Cust in the NRL they would have known he wasn’t a stand off but an hooker.

i wouldnt argue with you there, and that was really the point i was making / adding to Mikes point. It doesnt matter what combination of 1,6,7 and 13 we have, if the ball is painfully slow from acting half (predominantly no9), then there is a good chance they are going to be negated as the defence will be in their faces. We can get away with it against the poorer teams, but if we were to play v Saints or in the NRL week in week out, there is no way we could manage with slow distribution from our 9

IMO this is *really* overstating things. You're saying that the entire future of the team is determined by the choice of a single player. Yes, the forwards set the platform (well they do on tackles 3 and 4 - its the wings/centres that set the platform for that and the hooker is not involved) and the hooker controls that phase, but in general tackles 5 and 6 are back line dominated moves, so surely the composition of the backline influences that? They have a more difficult job to make an impact with slow ball, but they still can.

I'm surprised the following objections to this formation haven't come up, as they've been mentioned a lot in the past.
* Cust has been criticized for weak defense, and we're saying we need him in the middles significantly increasing his defensive duties
* Field has been criticized for being a poor at stand-off

I think throwing Hampshire into the mix is a realistic option in future, but because of injury it isn't yet, and not for the foreseeable. I also don't think saying the problem is past recruitment helps this discussion (no matter how correct that might be in hindsight), because we are where we are this season, and we're talking about how to get the most out of this squad.

I supposed I just have to understand that we're so focused on Powell specifically, that all thread must be about him and only him...

[the pieman]

Martin Dermott was the best hooker I’ve seen at Wigan. The crispness, quality and timing of his passes were exemplary. Martin wasn’t a running 9 but his distribution made a massive difference to the team.

Our issues come down to poor recruitment. If anyone had watched Cust in the NRL they would have known he wasn’t a stand off but an hooker.

i wouldnt argue with you there, and that was really the point i was making / adding to Mikes point. It doesnt matter what combination of 1,6,7 and 13 we have, if the ball is painfully slow from acting half (predominantly no9), then there is a good chance they are going to be negated as the defence will be in their faces. We can get away with it against the poorer teams, but if we were to play v Saints or in the NRL week in week out, there is no way we could manage with slow distribution from our 9

IMO this is *really* overstating things. You're saying that the entire future of the team is determined by the choice of a single player. Yes, the forwards set the platform (well they do on tackles 3 and 4 - its the wings/centres that set the platform for that and the hooker is not involved) and the hooker controls that phase, but in general tackles 5 and 6 are back line dominated moves, so surely the composition of the backline influences that? They have a more difficult job to make an impact with slow ball, but they still can.

I'm surprised the following objections to this formation haven't come up, as they've been mentioned a lot in the past.
* Cust has been criticized for weak defense, and we're saying we need him in the middles significantly increasing his defensive duties
* Field has been criticized for being a poor at stand-off

I think throwing Hampshire into the mix is a realistic option in future, but because of injury it isn't yet, and not for the foreseeable. I also don't think saying the problem is past recruitment helps this discussion (no matter how correct that might be in hindsight), because we are where we are this season, and we're talking about how to get the most out of this squad.

I supposed I just have to understand that we're so focused on Powell specifically, that all thread must be about him and only him...

No, but it is critical if we want French and Field to be receiving good ball, with options and not being battered by the opposition defence. I purposely, other than agreeing Martin Dermott is the best hooker i've seen at Wigan, havent named Powell, i've said hooker or no9. We need someone to be able to deliver good quality ball for either the current setup or any proposed changes to that setup to be effective.

I agree tackles 1 and 2 are mainly wing or centre picking up and taking the ball up, especially if its in our own 20m area. tackles 3 & 4 are still reliant on a good ball from the hooker. a slow POTB, and poor slow ball, means the taking the ball flat / immediately into a line of defenders and no real metre gains, thus impacting on tackle 5 & 6 options too.

so whilst i wasnt saying we are wholly reliant on one person, that one person, our no 9 is critical to the speed that we play and the quality that we with, and the ability to unlock the potential of others in the team

[Wigan_forever1985]

I don’t agree it’s overstating things Mike

Swap roby for Powell at saints and they would struggled to win a single title over the last 4 years imo

[Mike]

i wouldnt argue with you there, and that was really the point i was making / adding to Mikes point. It doesnt matter what combination of 1,6,7 and 13 we have, if the ball is painfully slow from acting half (predominantly no9), then there is a good chance they are going to be negated as the defence will be in their faces. We can get away with it against the poorer teams, but if we were to play v Saints or in the NRL week in week out, there is no way we could manage with slow distribution from our 9

IMO this is *really* overstating things. You're saying that the entire future of the team is determined by the choice of a single player. Yes, the forwards set the platform (well they do on tackles 3 and 4 - its the wings/centres that set the platform for that and the hooker is not involved) and the hooker controls that phase, but in general tackles 5 and 6 are back line dominated moves, so surely the composition of the backline influences that? They have a more difficult job to make an impact with slow ball, but they still can.

I'm surprised the following objections to this formation haven't come up, as they've been mentioned a lot in the past.
* Cust has been criticized for weak defense, and we're saying we need him in the middles significantly increasing his defensive duties
* Field has been criticized for being a poor at stand-off

I think throwing Hampshire into the mix is a realistic option in future, but because of injury it isn't yet, and not for the foreseeable. I also don't think saying the problem is past recruitment helps this discussion (no matter how correct that might be in hindsight), because we are where we are this season, and we're talking about how to get the most out of this squad.

I supposed I just have to understand that we're so focused on Powell specifically, that all thread must be about him and only him...

No, but it is critical if we want French and Field to be receiving good ball, with options and not being battered by the opposition defence. I purposely, other than agreeing Martin Dermott is the best hooker i've seen at Wigan, havent named Powell, i've said hooker or no9. We need someone to be able to deliver good quality ball for either the current setup or any proposed changes to that setup to be effective.

I agree tackles 1 and 2 are mainly wing or centre picking up and taking the ball up, especially if its in our own 20m area. tackles 3 & 4 are still reliant on a good ball from the hooker. a slow POTB, and poor slow ball, means the taking the ball flat / immediately into a line of defenders and no real metre gains, thus impacting on tackle 5 & 6 options too.

so whilst i wasnt saying we are wholly reliant on one person, that one person, our no 9 is critical to the speed that we play and the quality that we with, and the ability to unlock the potential of others in the team

Fair enough. I accept that hooker is an important position regardless of who's in the halves.

However do you think we'd be better, slightly or otherwise removing Cust from the halves and shifting field and french. Personally I think we would but it may take some time to bed in and we would have to persevere with it through some rough games where it doesn't click before we get to a sweet spot.

[the pieman]

IMO this is *really* overstating things. You're saying that the entire future of the team is determined by the choice of a single player. Yes, the forwards set the platform (well they do on tackles 3 and 4 - its the wings/centres that set the platform for that and the hooker is not involved) and the hooker controls that phase, but in general tackles 5 and 6 are back line dominated moves, so surely the composition of the backline influences that? They have a more difficult job to make an impact with slow ball, but they still can.

I'm surprised the following objections to this formation haven't come up, as they've been mentioned a lot in the past.
* Cust has been criticized for weak defense, and we're saying we need him in the middles significantly increasing his defensive duties
* Field has been criticized for being a poor at stand-off

I think throwing Hampshire into the mix is a realistic option in future, but because of injury it isn't yet, and not for the foreseeable. I also don't think saying the problem is past recruitment helps this discussion (no matter how correct that might be in hindsight), because we are where we are this season, and we're talking about how to get the most out of this squad.

I supposed I just have to understand that we're so focused on Powell specifically, that all thread must be about him and only him...

No, but it is critical if we want French and Field to be receiving good ball, with options and not being battered by the opposition defence. I purposely, other than agreeing Martin Dermott is the best hooker i've seen at Wigan, havent named Powell, i've said hooker or no9. We need someone to be able to deliver good quality ball for either the current setup or any proposed changes to that setup to be effective.

I agree tackles 1 and 2 are mainly wing or centre picking up and taking the ball up, especially if its in our own 20m area. tackles 3 & 4 are still reliant on a good ball from the hooker. a slow POTB, and poor slow ball, means the taking the ball flat / immediately into a line of defenders and no real metre gains, thus impacting on tackle 5 & 6 options too.

so whilst i wasnt saying we are wholly reliant on one person, that one person, our no 9 is critical to the speed that we play and the quality that we with, and the ability to unlock the potential of others in the team

Fair enough. I accept that hooker is an important position regardless of who's in the halves.

However do you think we'd be better, slightly or otherwise removing Cust from the halves and shifting field and french. Personally I think we would but it may take some time to bed in and we would have to persevere with it through some rough games where it doesn't click before we get to a sweet spot.

i'll be honest i wasnt convinced by Field in the halves last year, but thats not saying it couldnt work, and my opinion is based on him being chucked in there a handful of times last year.

i've not been to all the games this year, so not got a full opinion on Cust (in terms of form). He has the ability, and it could be he is a better 9 than 6, and if thats the case we'd be daft not to give him a good run there. I think that move is more likely to be successful than Field to 6, but that just my opinion.

i suppose the other fallback if Cust does work at 9, is that we have Hampshire (admittedly not fit yet) who could fill in at 6 if it doesnt look like Field is working out there, so the late signing of Hampshire could be a crude bit of business from the club as we were looking light in the halves with TL retired

[morley pie eater]

Apparently we need a 9 who runs from dummy half more.

The latest SL stats show Wigan with 35 runs from dummy half so far this season. Top of the league are Hull with 88.
Points scored: Wigan 138, Hull 86.
Wins: Wigan 3/5, Hull 2/5.

Discuss.

[Charriots Offiah]

Apparently we need a 9 who runs from dummy half more.

The latest SL stats show Wigan with 35 runs from dummy half so far this season. Top of the league are Hull with 88.
Points scored: Wigan 138, Hull 86.
Wins: Wigan 3/5, Hull 2/5.

Discuss.

We don’t need a dummy half who runs all the time. Now and again when the opportunity arises will do. What we do need is someone with vision, a crisp passing game, an alternative kicking game, and who is good defensively. Obviously, none of this is helpful if the receiving player is not in the correct position when receiving the ball.

[Charriots Offiah]

I don’t agree it’s overstating things Mike

Swap roby for Powell at saints and they would struggled to win a single title over the last 4 years imo

So, if Wigan had Roby we would have won the last four SL titles? I don’t think so. About once every 20 years a team comes along where everything falls into place. Saints have retained most of their top juniors, recruited very well both from this country and abroad, mixed experience with youthful exuberance, hired good coaches, and they have had more than their fair share of luck particularly with injuries. If anyone of those components is missing they wouldn’t have had the same success irrespective of Roby who, by the way, I rate very highly both as a player and a person.