Cats v Wigan

Discuss all things Wigan Warriors. Comments and opinions on all aspects of the club's performance are welcome.
Charriots Offiah
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Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by Charriots Offiah »

josie andrews wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:41 pm
medlocke wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:07 pm Bollocks to it, nobody is getting what I'm trying to as usual, I am not comparing standards of players, salary cap etc or if NRL is better than SL, I am comparing how in SL 22/23 year olds are seen as prospects with possibilities yet in the NRL and over here in the past pre SL players of the same age have/had already established themselves, not rocket science, no agenda, not trolling, just an observation, the end :evil:
It’s an altogether different sport now as to when it was played in the past Meds.

Even Shaun Edwards commented on it the other night, saying maybe a handful of British players in his era would make it in todays SL because of the speed of the game & the size of the players etc. He even commented on Martin Offiah who rarely, if ever got tackled, cos a winger stayed on the wing! None of this taking the ball up the middle like they, the centres & backs do now.

But then of course there was his speed which got him from one side of the pitch to the other, similar to Field, French & Marshall when they get a free rein 😊

The forwards here are a lot smaller & lighter than in the past. My Dad was 17-18 stone when he played & his position was hooker. Do you think the golden child Roby is anywhere near that weight & would he be able to ‘scoot’ the way he does if he was heavier?

Also there is the "duty of care" these days when in the past, like Edwards said, he carried on playing with a broken cheek bone & a fractured eye socket of which he couldn’t see out of that eye for the rest of the game as it was filled with blood.

Andy Farrell with the broken nose that had to be strapped up across his face & head, even John Wilkin played the same. That would never be allowed in this day & age.

So the game today is completely different today for some to to detriment of the sport to others for the better to protect our players health & welfare.
Josie, it is a different sport but it is still a simple game. The forwards get you field position and the backs put on the razzle dazzle and score tries. Whether we like hearing it or not, Wigan has struggled to adapt to the modern game and our recruitment is a large part of that problem. There is no doubt in my mind that we are capable of beating any team on our day but we do lack size and aggression in the pack. From 1 to 7 we are as good as any team in SL, compare our forwards and it is a different story. The penny has got to drop, sooner rather than later, if we are going to become the No.1 team in the competition.

I expect us to contact Salford again this week with a view to recruiting Dupree and, in addition to signing Walters, recruit two more forwards in the off season. Rads needs to be ruthless.
fozzieskem
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:54 am

Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by fozzieskem »

Charriots Offiah wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:27 pm
josie andrews wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:41 pm
medlocke wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:07 pm Bollocks to it, nobody is getting what I'm trying to as usual, I am not comparing standards of players, salary cap etc or if NRL is better than SL, I am comparing how in SL 22/23 year olds are seen as prospects with possibilities yet in the NRL and over here in the past pre SL players of the same age have/had already established themselves, not rocket science, no agenda, not trolling, just an observation, the end :evil:
It’s an altogether different sport now as to when it was played in the past Meds.

Even Shaun Edwards commented on it the other night, saying maybe a handful of British players in his era would make it in todays SL because of the speed of the game & the size of the players etc. He even commented on Martin Offiah who rarely, if ever got tackled, cos a winger stayed on the wing! None of this taking the ball up the middle like they, the centres & backs do now.

But then of course there was his speed which got him from one side of the pitch to the other, similar to Field, French & Marshall when they get a free rein 😊

The forwards here are a lot smaller & lighter than in the past. My Dad was 17-18 stone when he played & his position was hooker. Do you think the golden child Roby is anywhere near that weight & would he be able to ‘scoot’ the way he does if he was heavier?

Also there is the "duty of care" these days when in the past, like Edwards said, he carried on playing with a broken cheek bone & a fractured eye socket of which he couldn’t see out of that eye for the rest of the game as it was filled with blood.

Andy Farrell with the broken nose that had to be strapped up across his face & head, even John Wilkin played the same. That would never be allowed in this day & age.

So the game today is completely different today for some to to detriment of the sport to others for the better to protect our players health & welfare.
Josie, it is a different sport but it is still a simple game. The forwards get you field position and the backs put on the razzle dazzle and score tries. Whether we like hearing it or not, Wigan has struggled to adapt to the modern game and our recruitment is a large part of that problem. There is no doubt in my mind that we are capable of beating any team on our day but we do lack size and aggression in the pack. From 1 to 7 we are as good as any team in SL, compare our forwards and it is a different story. The penny has got to drop, sooner rather than later, if we are going to become the No.1 team in the competition.

I expect us to contact Salford again this week with a view to recruiting Dupree and, in addition to signing Walters, recruit two more forwards in the off season. Rads needs to be ruthless.
I agree wigan and Radlinski need to be ruthless but all to often they sign from the old boys network usually injured to boot,it's getting moronic wigans recruitment this side like it or not are at beat a 4th or 5th place side that's the reality of it.

You mention in another post the French and field problem and it IS a problem field is not a 6 in a month of sundays French to me is far more attacking down the wing than at fullback its square pegs round hole problem as you say and I mentioned is it time to crunch the celery and let.one of them.leave and spend the money elsewhere in the team,I always called.them.luxury players 1 can be devastating but 2 of that type.lf player can create its own problems,for me Field is better at fullback,but that's just me.

Yes we've lost players to season ending injuries but the issues have been here all.season long so it can't all be blamed on that.
josie andrews
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Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by josie andrews »

Charriots Offiah wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:27 pm
josie andrews wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:41 pm
medlocke wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:07 pm Bollocks to it, nobody is getting what I'm trying to as usual, I am not comparing standards of players, salary cap etc or if NRL is better than SL, I am comparing how in SL 22/23 year olds are seen as prospects with possibilities yet in the NRL and over here in the past pre SL players of the same age have/had already established themselves, not rocket science, no agenda, not trolling, just an observation, the end :evil:
It’s an altogether different sport now as to when it was played in the past Meds.

Even Shaun Edwards commented on it the other night, saying maybe a handful of British players in his era would make it in todays SL because of the speed of the game & the size of the players etc. He even commented on Martin Offiah who rarely, if ever got tackled, cos a winger stayed on the wing! None of this taking the ball up the middle like they, the centres & backs do now.

But then of course there was his speed which got him from one side of the pitch to the other, similar to Field, French & Marshall when they get a free rein 😊

The forwards here are a lot smaller & lighter than in the past. My Dad was 17-18 stone when he played & his position was hooker. Do you think the golden child Roby is anywhere near that weight & would he be able to ‘scoot’ the way he does if he was heavier?

Also there is the "duty of care" these days when in the past, like Edwards said, he carried on playing with a broken cheek bone & a fractured eye socket of which he couldn’t see out of that eye for the rest of the game as it was filled with blood.

Andy Farrell with the broken nose that had to be strapped up across his face & head, even John Wilkin played the same. That would never be allowed in this day & age.

So the game today is completely different today for some to to detriment of the sport to others for the better to protect our players health & welfare.
Josie, it is a different sport but it is still a simple game. The forwards get you field position and the backs put on the razzle dazzle and score tries. Whether we like hearing it or not, Wigan has struggled to adapt to the modern game and our recruitment is a large part of that problem. There is no doubt in my mind that we are capable of beating any team on our day but we do lack size and aggression in the pack. From 1 to 7 we are as good as any team in SL, compare our forwards and it is a different story. The penny has got to drop, sooner rather than later, if we are going to become the No.1 team in the competition.

I expect us to contact Salford again this week with a view to recruiting Dupree and, in addition to signing Walters, recruit two more forwards in the off season. Rads needs to be ruthless.
Totally agree,

Yes, we do need to be ruthless in recruiting forwards, we can’t keep having our backs taking the ball up the middle to help the forwards out!
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
that takes a lot of courage. #18thMan
Ipinwigan
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat May 08, 2021 4:28 pm

Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by Ipinwigan »

Totally agree about backs taking it forward, we need a pack that can hurt the opposition, at the moment they are very poor.
Flash
Posts: 248
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:45 am

Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by Flash »

It is, unfortunately, very simple to beat this current Wigan side. All you need to do is keep hold of the ball. We make so many errors that, if you do that one simple thing, you get an overwhelming weight of possession. Catalans did it earlier in the season and again yesterday. Leeds did it during the infamous 2nd half collapse a few weeks ago.

I fail to understand how professional players find it so difficult to hold on to the ball, not kick out on the full, stop giving unnecessary penalties away etc. I'm a professional musician and if I played as many bum notes as our players drop the ball etc. I wouldn't be employed. The ability to do the basics of your job adequately should be a minimum requirement not an optional extra.
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EagleEyePie
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Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by EagleEyePie »

We certainly seem to be lacking that ruthlessness when it comes to recruitment and retention. When you look at some of the stats of the Catalans front row not just yesterday but over the course of the season they have numerous forwards who can make 100+ metres in games and dominate. They've got some big forwards who make an impact. Even their players who don't regularly make big metres such as Navarette or Goudemand step up when players are missing and make a difference. They are a club that aggressively looks for better players to improve them and will also let established players leave if necessary.

What frustrates me is we went into this season without any improvement in the pack and the loss of a marquee player. Having seen the season fade out in 2022 there was no push to take our pack to a higher level, all the focus seemed to be on recruiting centres. We went into 2023 with Cooper and Havard looking like decent props, Byrne looking inconsistent, Ellis, Singleton and Mago looking poor. The plan was obviously to get more from what we had.

We've definitely got more from Ellis, but before injury we were getting noticeably less from Cooper, so we still ended up with 2 decent props (now Havard and Ellis), Byrne exactly the same as last season (bar a couple of impressive performances), Mago and Singleton still clearly not good enough.

You can't really expect Cooper to keep playing as well as he had been when he was in his mid 30's. We needed to look for more, to account for the possibility that an older player might decline.

As for Byrne, he's 23. Most props really seem to peak at around 28. We could be waiting a long time for him to actually show noticeable improvement. Just look at how long it took Gil Dudson to really reach his top level after we had him as a young player. The same goes for Navarrete, who was poor for us, fairly unspectacular after leaving but is now having a consistent season at the age of 28. Two props featuring for our main rivals having been around the block. Just hoping young props develop quickly is a poor way to build a pack.

The fact that Singleton is going to Salford shows the club don't rate him and it shows other SL teams are willing to sign him. Wakefield were interested in Mago. We've got players who aren't good enough for us but are wanted by other clubs and we just let them see out their contracts. I just don't see why the club is happy to wait around with players they don't rate rather than being proactive.

We lost Bateman from the back row and decided to go with Isa and KPP. Isa couldn't get a game at back row previously because he was kept out by better players and KPP had no real form to speak of. That's not aggressively seeking improvement it's just hoping for the best. Credit to Isa, his last 3 or 4 games for us were impressive after a poor start but you've got to expect injuries for a player who is now 34 and that's the position we're in now. Even with faith in his abilities it's a short term move. We knew KPP would be going so it's another short term solution to stick with him so we're now looking at a complete back row revamp next year. I feel like the sensible option would be to try to get ahead of the game and to objectively look at certain players and decide we need to push for better, but instead we don't seem to invite interest in our players and just let them see out their contract with average performances. The players that we do allow to leave mid-contract tend to be the good ones.
Barney841
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:24 am

Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by Barney841 »

Charriots Offiah wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:11 pm Field and French. Peet is trying to accommodate both in the team but it is clearly not working. In my view, they are very similar players and in a perfect world we should not have two overseas players competing for the same spot in the team, irrespective of how good they both are. The only solution is to put Bevan back on the wing or, and this is controversial, let one of them leave.
I think you’re right. They have similar attributes and they both can’t play FB. Also I think Field isn’t a HB, French is better at FB than Field, French is wasted on the wing.
southportcdm
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Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by southportcdm »

A depressing effort yesterday and it's easy to find fault in every area after such a performance. I'll just point out that they did beat us convincingly at the DW when we had far fewer injuries than them. I still think most of our problems stem from our props as a group so I won't add to any potential problems with hookers, halfbacks or the coaching team that others have discussed.

At the start of the season I thought, for us to compete with the top teams, we'd need Cooper to maintain his form from last season together with a marked improvement from Ellis, Mago, Byrne and Singleton. Initially Ellis improved but less so since his injury. Byrne hasn't made much progress but is still relatively young and doesn't use a quota spot. Mago is a bit better but still not good enough and Singleton was at about the same level as last season before his injury. For this season, Cooper's injury was a big blow and, combined with Singleton's we're in a very difficult spot at the moment. If Singleton is still out against wire it'll probably cost us the Cup and we'll need everybody other than Cooper (including Isa and KPP) fit to make meaningful run at the GF.

I'm looking at next season now and, as Singleton is on his way, Dupree (if signed) could be his replacement. I see Walters as a KPP replacement who can also fill in at prop so we need a new prop to replace Mago. Assuming that Cooper recovers (a risk at his age) we then need to decide if we replace Ellis. Hill is promising but still too young for anything more than a backup role next season. In summary, if Walters is the only confirmed singing so far, we need at least two good props and possibly more if Cooper doesn't recover or we decide to move Ellis on.
Barney841
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Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by Barney841 »

Our pack is a problem, especially the front row.
Also I’m a massive fan of Faz but he’s not the player he use to be…
Exiled Wiganer
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Re: Cats v Wigan

Post by Exiled Wiganer »

I haven’t read the whole thread, but suspect this has already been covered.

Our problem is one of physics - as we have a tiny pack, unless we play far more quickly we get dominated. When it works we are competitive, but are seeming refusal over many years to buy enough good big players astonishes me. Especially as we don’t have a 9 who runs, that lack of momentum puts massive pressure on the backs. Any defence can target Smith with everything they’ve got because our forwards don’t give us enough go forward and our 9 is no threat at all. We went all in on centres last year, we need to go all in on big props this year. Dupree plus a better version of Mago plus either a fully recovered Cooper or else another big unit and we will be up there.

I do really like our back line and felt we caused them plenty enough problems to have won that game - 5 tries speaks for itself. Oh and of course, if you swapped kickers we could have won despite being out scored on tries… and I like our coach a lot. His reaction was the perfect blend of disappointment, anger and determination to put things rights.

I have seen enough this year to think that Peet deserves backing and that the squad will make the most of their talents. The future is bright if we recruit right.
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