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Re: Bevan French
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:38 pm
by DaveO
lucky 13 wrote:Dave .....
"If you look at his record in the cold light of day it’s not that good for a club supposedly the top team in the land or at least one of the top four and the last real quality squad we had was in the2010-2013 years."
I'm taking it you mean us Warrington Leeds as part of the top four but which other Saints?
No I am looking at the record for what it is, is and of itself. I don’t care who won what from 2007 besides us. A different team could have won it every year for all I care thus making Wigan on paper the most successful side by some distance but that number of trophies over that number of seasons doesn’t strike me as great for a side that was spending to the cap long before every other team was. It certainly doesn’t warrant IL being put on a pedestal.
I am trying to point out that it’s not that spectacular a record and that (and this is the main point) there has been a steady decline in the standard of the squad since it peaked quality wise between 2010 and 2013.
We are fortunate there is a playoff system and the Wigan teams of 2016 and 2018 managed to put it together for those playoffs. I simply don’t hold with the notion the winners of the playoffs are the best side. Up to this season any half decent side would struggle not to qualify for the playoffs. You could do so losing more than you win and then all you have to do is wake up. The winners are the best for a few games and I think those two later wins papered over the looming cracks whereas in 2010 to 2013 we had the quality squad you’d expect of a champion side.
Since then we have tried to win it on the cheap doing so twice which is obviously a darn sight better than not winning but I think IL has presided over a steady decline in quality and its gone too far.
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:54 pm
by Woody1989
DaveO wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:38 pm
lucky 13 wrote:Dave .....
"If you look at his record in the cold light of day it’s not that good for a club supposedly the top team in the land or at least one of the top four and the last real quality squad we had was in the2010-2013 years."
I'm taking it you mean us Warrington Leeds as part of the top four but which other Saints?
No I am looking at the record for what it is, is and of itself. I don’t care who won what from 2007 besides us. A different team could have won it every year for all I care thus making Wigan on paper the most successful side by some distance but that number of trophies over that number of seasons doesn’t strike me as great for a side that was spending to the cap long before every other team was. It certainly doesn’t warrant IL being put on a pedestal.
I am trying to point out that it’s not that spectacular a record and that (and this is the main point) there has been a steady decline in the standard of the squad since it peaked quality wise between 2010 and 2013.
We are fortunate there is a playoff system and the Wigan teams of 2016 and 2018 managed to put it together for those playoffs. I simply don’t hold with the notion the winners of the playoffs are the best side. Up to this season any half decent side would struggle not to qualify for the playoffs. You could do so losing more than you win and then all you have to do is wake up. The winners are the best for a few games and I think those two later wins papered over the looming cracks whereas in 2010 to 2013 we had the quality squad you’d expect of a champion side.
Since then we have tried to win it on the cheap doing so twice which is obviously a darn sight better than not winning but I think IL has presided over a steady decline in quality and its gone too far.
I agree that the quality of the team has declined since 2013, but I wonder if that's because we were still winning trophies. Lenegan probably didn't see the need to sign big when Wane seemed to be able to make champions out of bang average players.
Hopefully the signing of Hastings is a sign that Lenegan has realised he needs to invest again.
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:01 am
by lucky 13
If we have declined what's your take on the other big four?
We are a prime example of SL playing second best to the NRL and also running the best youth set up in that same time.
When you bring players through now you have the likes of Warrington offering good money and alsi the NRL Which often ends in us paying over the odds for players. William's for me was not marquee but if he had gone to Wire I can only imagine the stuff thrown IL way. At one time unless it was a lifestyle choice we would have been on an even footing or an advantage, with the likes of Bateman contract wise towards the NRL now we have no chance. The good Saints Bradford and Leeds sides all had that cap in their favour. Where are Bradford and Leeds now?
I would love to see top players in all positions and at times I do wonder what's going on. The facts in terms of how the comps is set up and how we have won dont change that in the period 2013 to 18 we have been the most successful team. Leeds won in a similar manner before us.
What's your thoughts on overall spending at Wigan ie first team marquee, academy and backvroom towards all the other big teams?
I imagine in that given period we will have spent the most?
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:36 am
by nathan_rugby
The booze hound wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:28 pm
nathan_rugby wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:11 pm
ddtftf wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:15 pm
French has 1 quality that all the training in the world will not produce, and thats electric pace , so no matter where they play him he will have 2 markers leaving a gap in the defence .
Teams always use two markers...
Pace is only useful if you can create the space to utilize it.
For arguments sake, who do we think have been the fastest players in Super League in the last 10 years?
Teams do not always use two markers, especially when defending within ten metres of their own try line. (But I don't think ddtftf meant markers in this sense, I think he meant that French's pace will attract an extra defender/tackler as his pace would be able to get him at the outside shoulder of the first defender.
I didn't think I needed to explicitly say except from when teams are defending within their own 10m line.
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:37 pm
by Fujiman
Wasn't Frano converted to a good no 6?
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:24 pm
by DaveO
Fujiman wrote:Wasn't Frano converted to a good no 6?
He was a fly half in RU before he switched to league. So he was a half back before he ever got to league.
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:00 am
by medlocke
DaveO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:24 pm
Fujiman wrote:Wasn't Frano converted to a good no 6?
He was a fly half in RU before he switched to league. So he was a half back before he ever got to league.
But he'd never played half back at first grade in the NRL
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:15 am
by DaveO
medlocke wrote:DaveO wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:24 pm
Fujiman wrote:Wasn't Frano converted to a good no 6?
He was a fly half in RU before he switched to league. So he was a half back before he ever got to league.
But he'd never played half back at first grade in the NRL
Neither has French as far as I am aware. I was under the impression he’s had a couple of games at 6 in reserve grade.
Botica on the other hand was Grant Fox’s rival for the RU no 10 position for the All Blacks and did play for them in that position on several occasions before switching to league.
It really wasn’t a surprise to find he could play six in RL and the last thing he was, was a converted winger.
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:43 am
by nathan_rugby
There is nothing wrong with project signings or risky signings where we try to convert somebody. However, it should not be at the expense of the first team / squad.
If he is cheap and doesn't impact our transfer plans and salary cap then why not. But if he is signed as a first team player, has a big wage or impacts our recruitment of a player who would definitely be in the first team squad, then it should be a no.
Re: Bevan French
Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:58 am
by Wes
He’d be the fastest player in super league and he’s only in lower league sure to guthertson taking his spot, it’s a yes from me.
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