Salary Cap

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buttmonkey2
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by buttmonkey2 »

I'm sure Wigan have upgraded junior contracts dependent on first team appearances for a very long time now.
Maybe even since the salary cap was first introduced.

Strange that DaveO couldn't understand the process and appeared to make out that no other posters had any idea how the salary cap worked :roll:
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DaveO
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by DaveO »

nathan_rugby wrote:
DaveO wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:14 pm
nathan_rugby wrote: The question was referring to Wigan not playing him to stop an increase in salary which would be triggered by appearances.

To explain.

Let’s say hypothetically his salary is £20k per year (£1,600 per month) & that results in our salary cap being bang on. If his contract stipulates his salary goes up to £30k (£2,500 per month) after 15 appearances then his wage will be £2,500 per month from that change.

Since my example had us bang on the cap based on his £20k salary, the increase, even if just a few thousand, would take us over.
I think we are on the same page. If he was on £20k he wouldn’t count on the cap at all no matter how often he played.

If Wigan had a contract with him that said if he played X games he got a pay rise then yes he’d then acquire a salary cap value. This is obviously true.

However why would the club be so stupid as to agree a contract that changed a players wages mid season potentially taking them over the cap and forcing them to drop him?

I am sure the player would love it that he was being dropped to deny him a pay rise.

Surely the club would make any pay rise that was based on appearances apply in the following season? It would be bonkers to do otherwise as you would probably have several players on the same deal and the coach would see his selection choices limited in case a player played too often.

Then again we have Rads running things so it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if that’s what happens Image
£20k bad example. £30k, £40k, doesn’t matter.
Why is £20k a bad example? It’s the figure quoted in the salary cap rules on the RFL web site beyond which a junior player acquires a salary cap value.
DaveO
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by DaveO »

buttmonkey2 wrote:I'm sure Wigan have upgraded junior contracts dependent on first team appearances for a very long time now.
Maybe even since the salary cap was first introduced.

Strange that DaveO couldn't understand the process and appeared to make out that no other posters had any idea how the salary cap worked :roll:
I understand the process perfectly well and I also read the salary cap rules.

If Wigan are stupid enough to agree to automatically start paying a player more in the middle of a salary cap year thus taking them over the cap then it wouldn’t surprise me.

A sensibly run club would say if you exceed X number of first team appearances you qualify for a pay rise next year. Then if they have an injury crisis they can play someone like O’Neil as often as they want without busting the cap.
DaveO
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by DaveO »

Dan2266 wrote:
WarriorWinger wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:09 pm
DaveO wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:14 pm I think we are on the same page. If he was on £20k he wouldn’t count on the cap at all no matter how often he played.

If Wigan had a contract with him that said if he played X games he got a pay rise then yes he’d then acquire a salary cap value. This is obviously true.

However why would the club be so stupid as to agree a contract that changed a players wages mid season potentially taking them over the cap and forcing them to drop him?

I am sure the player would love it that he was being dropped to deny him a pay rise.

Surely the club would make any pay rise that was based on appearances apply in the following season? It would be bonkers to do otherwise as you would probably have several players on the same deal and the coach would see his selection choices limited in case a player played too often.

Then again we have Rads running things so it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if that’s what happens Image
To be honest I think it is pretty standard in the youth set up to have an increment based on the number of first team appearances, cant remember who told me now as it was a number of years ago but it was one of the (ex) wigan players
Exactly why Lenners referenced Pearce Paul's contract at the forum
I thought the only mention of KPP was by Rads when he said his agent would come looking for four times his wages?
nathan_rugby
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by nathan_rugby »

DaveO wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:52 pm
nathan_rugby wrote:
DaveO wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:14 pm
I think we are on the same page. If he was on £20k he wouldn’t count on the cap at all no matter how often he played.

If Wigan had a contract with him that said if he played X games he got a pay rise then yes he’d then acquire a salary cap value. This is obviously true.

However why would the club be so stupid as to agree a contract that changed a players wages mid season potentially taking them over the cap and forcing them to drop him?

I am sure the player would love it that he was being dropped to deny him a pay rise.

Surely the club would make any pay rise that was based on appearances apply in the following season? It would be bonkers to do otherwise as you would probably have several players on the same deal and the coach would see his selection choices limited in case a player played too often.

Then again we have Rads running things so it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if that’s what happens Image
£20k bad example. £30k, £40k, doesn’t matter.
Why is £20k a bad example? It’s the figure quoted in the salary cap rules on the RFL web site beyond which a junior player acquires a salary cap value.
A bad example from me because you started going on about something that wasn’t linked to the point I was making.
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EagleEyePie
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by EagleEyePie »

nathan_rugby wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:17 pm The question was referring to Wigan not playing him to stop an increase in salary which would be triggered by appearances.

To explain.

Let’s say hypothetically his salary is £20k per year (£1,600 per month) & that results in our salary cap being bang on. If his contract stipulates his salary goes up to £30k (£2,500 per month) after 15 appearances then his wage will be £2,500 per month from that change.

Since my example had us bang on the cap based on his £20k salary, the increase, even if just a few thousand, would take us over.
Surely DaveO's point on this was correct? A player gets given a salary cap value at the start of the season which considers base salary and all payments that could be (but not necessarily that are) paid and appearance bonuses are calculated on the basis that a player earning over £20,000 will play 18 matches in a year and if it's under £20,000 then it's calculated on the basis they will play 5 matches in a year.

So player appearance bonuses can't take a club over the salary cap unexpectedly, even if a players value was calculated based on then playing 5 matches and they end up playing 22. The cap rules stipulate that a player can receive more than their cap value, but all that counts on the cap is their original value.

Even if a contract stipulated a players base salary would increase based on appearances I'm pretty sure their value would be calculated on the likelihood of them reaching that number of appearances, much like how calculations are made for other bonuses. I think the only way to change a players cap value would be to agree a brand new contract mid-season that alters their payment from that point onwards.
nathan_rugby
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by nathan_rugby »

EagleEyePie wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 5:40 pm
nathan_rugby wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:17 pm The question was referring to Wigan not playing him to stop an increase in salary which would be triggered by appearances.

To explain.

Let’s say hypothetically his salary is £20k per year (£1,600 per month) & that results in our salary cap being bang on. If his contract stipulates his salary goes up to £30k (£2,500 per month) after 15 appearances then his wage will be £2,500 per month from that change.

Since my example had us bang on the cap based on his £20k salary, the increase, even if just a few thousand, would take us over.
Surely DaveO's point on this was correct? A player gets given a salary cap value at the start of the season which considers base salary and all payments that could be (but not necessarily that are) paid and appearance bonuses are calculated on the basis that a player earning over £20,000 will play 18 matches in a year and if it's under £20,000 then it's calculated on the basis they will play 5 matches in a year.

So player appearance bonuses can't take a club over the salary cap unexpectedly, even if a players value was calculated based on then playing 5 matches and they end up playing 22. The cap rules stipulate that a player can receive more than their cap value, but all that counts on the cap is their original value.

Even if a contract stipulated a players base salary would increase based on appearances I'm pretty sure their value would be calculated on the likelihood of them reaching that number of appearances, much like how calculations are made for other bonuses. I think the only way to change a players cap value would be to agree a brand new contract mid-season that alters their payment from that point onwards.
You need to re read.

Not talking about player appearance bonuses but talking about an increased wage / contract on the back of hitting a number of games in a season.

For example a player getting paid £3000 a month as standard but that going up to £4000 a month after 15 appearances.
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EagleEyePie
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by EagleEyePie »

nathan_rugby wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 7:49 pm You need to re read.

Not talking about player appearance bonuses but talking about an increased wage / contract on the back of hitting a number of games in a season.

For example a player getting paid £3000 a month as standard but that going up to £4000 a month after 15 appearances.
But something like that would have to be written into their contract from the start, so it would already be calculated as part of their cap value from the start. The promise to increase someone's wages once they reach a certain number of games is an incentive and all incentives have to be declared and taken into account when deciding a players cap value at the start of the season. So if their contract said their base salary increases after 15 games their cap value from the very start of the season would have to take that into consideration and be calculated on the likelihood of that happening.

The only way it wouldn't be included as part of their cap value at the start of the season would be if it was a brand new contract.
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Mike
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by Mike »

I think Saints hit something similar with international bonuses putting them over. I don't think all possible earnings are included in the cap value at the start, but I imagine its the actual earnings that have to be declared at the end, so there could be a discrepency at the end of the year. Apparently ours was around 3k out of 1800k, which isn't that much, but does show how much up to the cap we're paying this season.
Dan2266
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Re: Salary Cap

Post by Dan2266 »

Correct Mike, was just over £3000
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