standard of refereeing

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Doveoverdave
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by Doveoverdave »

robjoenz wrote:
stevocod wrote: Yep like the weather refs, they blow hot and cold, or is that the whistle! Seriously though this is a snap decision and officials in all sports need to consult both their linesmen and come up with a suggested course of action.

Too many games are spoilt by rash quick decisions. To think sports like football bemoan the use of video technology, yet controversy is still rife there. But if people just take their time and decide rationally, we may not have spoilt games.

You may say we weren't good enough too, but that quick decision affected the morale of the team and good field position, hence the scores mounting against us.

Let's face it, it's a highly charged emotional derby and Klein should have factored that into his mind pre-game, do they pre-plan games? It doesn't seem to be the case. Yet these guys are somehow now, fulltime!!

Since the departure of Russell Smith, only Ian Smith has seemed to be fair (even when we lose!!) and with no real shockingly bad decisions. Yes we all make bad decisions and mistakes as human beings, but this is not the first time Klein has made bad decisions on TV and probably not his last, yet he is never demoted and Ian Smith is, you tell me the logic in that Mr. Cummings.

Are these guys performance levels monitored and is the word professional appropriate, as it seems to be as Amateur as it ever has been!
Rugby league is a fast sport and referees have to make decisions on the spot, not appropriate to go to the video referee for every decision, got to go with what's in front of them.

Naturally, referees get some decisions wrong, this frustrates people. A lot of decisions are 50-50 calls too... an attacker is looking to offload, the tackler is trying to lock the ball up, the ball comes loose, what's the decision? One set of fans think one thing, the rest think another - a decision has to to be made. One set of fans is left frustrated.

Out of interest... what sort of pre-game preparation do you think a referee should do? How do you think preparation for a big derby should be different to any other type of game? Should the approach to refereeing be any different once the game has started? If so, why?

If refereeing is getting worse, what can be done about it? I mean past the usual calls of 'sack Cummings.' What actually needs to be done to directly improve standards and consistency without detriment to the game?
They (NRL/RFL) should stop tinkering with the rules for a start and keep it simple.
For example a ball must be passed backwards (not level, momentum(?)hand position)

A knock is a knock on irrespective if the player was looking at the ball or not (is this eye position?! )

The ridiculous tackling in the air rule. I fail too see what is wrong with this when executed correctly as all other tackles should be. Often pens are given for tackling a player "in the air " when he is on the way down and inches from the floor.

Etc. Etc. The rule makers are making a simple game "technical" and therefore impossible to ref. The game is rapidly being caught by RU as a spectacle and if the new rules for RU in the Southern Hemisphere are taken up internationally could soon be overtaken.
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robjoenz
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by robjoenz »

Doveoverdave wrote:They (NRL/RFL) should stop tinkering with the rules for a start and keep it simple.
For example a ball must be passed backwards (not level, momentum(?)hand position)

A knock is a knock on irrespective if the player was looking at the ball or not (is this eye position?! )

The ridiculous tackling in the air rule. I fail too see what is wrong with this when executed correctly as all other tackles should be. Often pens are given for tackling a player "in the air " when he is on the way down and inches from the floor.

Etc. Etc. The rule makers are making a simple game "technical" and therefore impossible to ref. The game is rapidly being caught by RU as a spectacle and if the new rules for RU in the Southern Hemisphere are taken up internationally could soon be overtaken.
The problem is, the game as it is played now, pushes the boundary of the rules hence why video referees were brought in, for example. You look at the forward pass ruling, the rule merely states just must not propell it towards your opponents try line. It's always been like that but only in recent years become an issue of debate.

As for whether you play at a ball, there is an argument to make it like football, if it has hits you and goes into touch it's the oppositions ball. The counter argument is that wingers will kick against their opposition winger to win a scrum and another set.

I don't know if you watch The Footy Show on Setanta, last week they had Bill Harrogan on it. He was saying how all these rule changes are derived at a meeting with the coaches and officials pre-season. I know the same to be true in the UK. It's not the Match Officials department coming up with something new to clamp down on to justify their job, it's a direct response to coach concerns.
mkyomo
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by mkyomo »

Q what happens to the ref when he make's a cockup and one of the teams win by his mistake ? do they get a fine or is nothing done ?.A lot of game are won and lost due to bad calls from the ref's, who knows what happens to the refs, we are never told.
highland convert
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by highland convert »

Someone please explain the difference. Just watched the semi. Leeds player shields ball as it goes dead. Talou dives through knocking said player onto ball. Ganson, kick out under sicks. Yet the other night Colbon touches player gentle as he goes by. Penalty. Where does it end. I felt sick. Please explain why ST.h can mouth off en mass to Klien no action Leeds simple mouth marched 10. Why did st.h get penalty when the leeds player got upto play the ball and the st h man climbed over him.I could go on but these points were blaitent. HC
pedro
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by pedro »

cos Klein is a closet scouser!

corrupt the lot of em
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robjoenz
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by robjoenz »

mkyomo wrote:Q what happens to the ref when he make's a cockup and one of the teams win by his mistake ? do they get a fine or is nothing done ?.A lot of game are won and lost due to bad calls from the ref's, who knows what happens to the refs, we are never told.
Referees are pretty much the same as players, they train hard, do pre-match preparation, review their performances with their coaches/mentors, get paid for what they do and are selected by their coach on a performance basis.

My personal opinion is that it is quite rare that a referee's call decides the game. 99 times out of 100 the game is won or lost by the players on the field. Of course there is that 1 time when it is the referee's fault, e.g. Millennium Magic last season, but that incident was scrutinised and now all referees now ensure that the team mates of the kicker are always onside. So whenever there is an experience to be learnt from improvements are made to try and prevent repeat occurences. These are communicated at group training sessions.
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robjoenz
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by robjoenz »

highland convert wrote:Someone please explain the difference. Just watched the semi. Leeds player shields ball as it goes dead. Talou dives through knocking said player onto ball. Ganson, kick out under sicks. Yet the other night Colbon touches player gentle as he goes by. Penalty. Where does it end. I felt sick. Please explain why ST.h can mouth off en mass to Klien no action Leeds simple mouth marched 10. Why did st.h get penalty when the leeds player got upto play the ball and the st h man climbed over him.I could go on but these points were blaitent. HC
I think the first incident could have gone either way. From the front on angle it looked like Talau had pushed Lee Smith and from the side angle it looked like Talau was going for the ball. If you think of the role of the player shielding the ball, it is his goal to get as close to the ball without touching it - Talua is entitled to challenge for that ball and in doing so Smith got too close. I suspect the VR deemed that Talau's play for the ball was legitimate and Lee Smith got too close and knocked the ball dead.

The Colbon one the other week was a push at Meli, just enough to knock him off balance. The key difference in my opinion is that there was no chance Colbon was playing for the ball at the instant he pushed Meli. He only played for it once Meli was out of the way.

Re: mouthing off. It depends what is said, the way it is said and how persistent the offender is. If they give an abusive tirade calling the referee a ****** cheating **** then they deserve to be sent off, as has happened several times this season. If a referee has to make a judgement call that could have gone either way you have to allow for the players being human and showing signs of frustration, provided they aren't too abusive or aggressive. There is a scale of severity, it's not black and white unfortunately.
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right cross
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by right cross »

going back to your question about preparation before a game ,

1 not letting a ref ref a game in the town were he was brought up in .

2 not letting him ref a game were he as said in public he hates one side.

3 not letting him video ref a game were he is biased blatantly.

does anyone know who i am on about?
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stevocod
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by stevocod »

robjoenz wrote:
Doveoverdave wrote:They (NRL/RFL) should stop tinkering with the rules for a start and keep it simple.
For example a ball must be passed backwards (not level, momentum(?)hand position)

A knock is a knock on irrespective if the player was looking at the ball or not (is this eye position?! )

The ridiculous tackling in the air rule. I fail too see what is wrong with this when executed correctly as all other tackles should be. Often pens are given for tackling a player "in the air " when he is on the way down and inches from the floor.

Etc. Etc. The rule makers are making a simple game "technical" and therefore impossible to ref. The game is rapidly being caught by RU as a spectacle and if the new rules for RU in the Southern Hemisphere are taken up internationally could soon be overtaken.
The problem is, the game as it is played now, pushes the boundary of the rules hence why video referees were brought in, for example. You look at the forward pass ruling, the rule merely states just must not propell it towards your opponents try line. It's always been like that but only in recent years become an issue of debate.

As for whether you play at a ball, there is an argument to make it like football, if it has hits you and goes into touch it's the oppositions ball. The counter argument is that wingers will kick against their opposition winger to win a scrum and another set.

I don't know if you watch The Footy Show on Setanta, last week they had Bill Harrogan on it. He was saying how all these rule changes are derived at a meeting with the coaches and officials pre-season. I know the same to be true in the UK. It's not the Match Officials department coming up with something new to clamp down on to justify their job, it's a direct response to coach concerns.
Yes but Rob, The video referee can't rule on a forward pass!!!!! :wink: :lol: Not necessarily true about the last sentence either, as in football the coaches in a particular division, or at the G-8 summit which only involves big clubs making the calls and it is like Wigan, Saints, Leeds and Bradford making their concerns known and the RFL change them. But this is a lot more complex in football and as you know there are far more teams in football and a unified decision must be met by FIFA and UEFA for rule change, but as Union and League are in rugby rules can be different in the hemispheres, whereas it needs to be one set of rules for both.

Why do you think that internationally we suffer. We go into these games playing a set of rules from a kiwi ref that we don't understand and the Aussies smash us. Fine lines such as momentum etc are the finer lines which can be reduced to improve referee performance.

Referees can pre-plan games by learning to realise who are the hot-heads to keep an eye on. In a derby match and let's face it IMO the biggest one, don't resort to rash decisions. Mcclorum's tackle was high yes but the saints player was slipping down as the momentum of the arm carried through.

I am not condoning the tackle, i am merely pointing out Klein should have taken the intensity of the situation (especially in the first ten minutes of a derby) to at least sin bin or put on report. The decision ruined the contest and while not as blatantly as Millenium Magic decisions by referee are affecting games, but in different ways, like sinbinning and mounting penalty counts.

I have noticed (Wigan fault as well) that we have many penalties given away against us this season. I am well aware we are not performing that well, but it does seem apparent that there is a distinct count against us and the finer lines are given more against us.

You could say the other sides get away with cheating more discretely, or is this just "oh this is Wigan, they won loads in the past, about time another team had the rub of the green". I am not saying this is the case, but I have heard you mention in the past that referees often even the penalty count out, throughout the game. This is not that apparent at all in SL games I have seen.

RL is a fast paced sport, I totally agree and people make the same debate about whether video technology should be brought in to solve goal line issues in football. RL has been a great benchmark for a sport going forward with video decisions etc and I don't for one second suggest that they rule on forward passes because you would need several more cameras for angles and there wouldn't be time, but both touch judges should be consulted. Yes they are for a try, but i mean generally. If it is not forward the referee puts time back on and continues the count, after all with the penalty count the way it is at the moment, they certainly have the time for it now!

Also I feel offside lines should be back to the way they used to be and I feel teams like Leeds and St. Helens walk the line very luckily and I feel that this is a grey area too in terms of the referee marshalling the line correctly and the right amount back. I have noticed we have been penalised for this plenty more than most this season.

I have mentioned this before, I know I have and it is the most apparent thing I have ever seen in SL these days and referees do not rule on these 50 - 50 or fair to the point that if one team does it consistently fair enough, but if both do and only one gets penalised or predominently, how is that fair?

I am not sure about the tackle in the air rule, that is another thing I have debated with you in the past and people of the same team of the receiver, obstructing someone challenging and i believe if you are going for the ball, you should not be obstructed (as with any other tackle, that is not allowed!). I know if you rip it one on one it's allowed but if an extra man is blocking the oncoming challenger, it doesn't get deemed to be obstruction. What is the difference? That is obstruction!! Look at the definition in the dictionary and this is not black and white and life isn't no, but we can make life simpler, by simplifying these things can't we?
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stevocod
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Re: standard of refereeing

Post by stevocod »

robjoenz wrote:
mkyomo wrote:Q what happens to the ref when he make's a cockup and one of the teams win by his mistake ? do they get a fine or is nothing done ?.A lot of game are won and lost due to bad calls from the ref's, who knows what happens to the refs, we are never told.
Referees are pretty much the same as players, they train hard, do pre-match preparation, review their performances with their coaches/mentors, get paid for what they do and are selected by their coach on a performance basis.
My personal opinion is that it is quite rare that a referee's call decides the game. 99 times out of 100 the game is won or lost by the players on the field. Of course there is that 1 time when it is the referee's fault, e.g. Millennium Magic last season, but that incident was scrutinised and now all referees now ensure that the team mates of the kicker are always onside. So whenever there is an experience to be learnt from improvements are made to try and prevent repeat occurences. These are communicated at group training sessions.
You said to me before what pre-game preparations should they do and now you say they do anyway. You are contradicting yourself and if they get selected on performance and they review stats/videos etc, then surely as mentioned before these standards are not sufficient SL standard and they must be replaced!!! :conf:
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