Lessons From Football

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Wigan_forever1985
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Lessons From Football

Post by Wigan_forever1985 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:36 am

Have to admit ive never really been a football fan but i couldn't help be drawn into this years title race watching several games and even when Wigan vs Wire was on i found myself flicking to the football in the gaps in play. When City went 1 down the excitement of watching the Anfield crowd react gave me chills that i havent had watching league in a long time. I dont for one second suggest football is a better sport but its simplicity is sometimes intoxicating - no gimmics just whoever wins the most games is the best team

For me it proves how valuable having the league as the main prize is. I've said this for a couple of years now i really feel that if rugby league wants to bring back people to the sport and/or increase crowd sizes you need to make sure that the league is the prize, its the only way to make EVERY game count and therefore worth attending.

It will help force teams to improve their squads and maintain intensity too, we have kept lockers going because we know that we can afford for him to miss 70% of the season and play 2 or 3 big games at the end of it all.

If it were me in charge at the RFL id ditch the play offs and make the league the main prize then at the end of the season top 4 Super League vs top 4 NRL play off for the "grand final" - this would replace the next to pointless international game.
Always be yourself - unless you can be Dan Bilzerian then ALWAYS be Dan Bilzerian!

DaveO
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by DaveO » Thu May 16, 2019 2:37 am

The title race in soccer was immense. It boiled down to 14 cup finals as neither team could afford to drop a point.

In various discussions we often see it mentioned the notion everyone has to be a winner in school sports is detrimental.

Well the playoffs are the equivalent. The whole idea is designed so that the season is not ended for over half the league until near the very end even if they have been crap and then a third of it has another chance if they make the cut.

I know loads of people go to the GF but what is the alternative? We used to fill Wembley for the cup and still got 60k crowds at Old Trafford for the premiership. There was nothing wrong with the champions being the team who won the league and if teams were out of it by now, well the cup was their other option. Out of that as well? Well you’re just not good enough so plan for next year and enjoy the league games.

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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by Wigan_forever1985 » Thu May 16, 2019 8:31 am

I do genuinely think it would revive the sport, the playoffs have drained the regular season of meaning and intensity its a bit like a cycling peloton everyone just keeping pace.

The football title run in showed though how the teams who had nothing to play for still could effect the main title race so they had a chance to be part of something bigger, had brighton beat city it would probably be THE most memorable moment that club would have for a long time
Always be yourself - unless you can be Dan Bilzerian then ALWAYS be Dan Bilzerian!

nathan_rugby
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by nathan_rugby » Thu May 16, 2019 9:59 am

DaveO wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:37 am
The title race in soccer was immense. It boiled down to 14 cup finals as neither team could afford to drop a point.

In various discussions we often see it mentioned the notion everyone has to be a winner in school sports is detrimental.

Well the playoffs are the equivalent. The whole idea is designed so that the season is not ended for over half the league until near the very end even if they have been crap and then a third of it has another chance if they make the cut.

I know loads of people go to the GF but what is the alternative? We used to fill Wembley for the cup and still got 60k crowds at Old Trafford for the premiership. There was nothing wrong with the champions being the team who won the league and if teams were out of it by now, well the cup was their other option. Out of that as well? Well you’re just not good enough so plan for next year and enjoy the league games.
Teams can end up qualifying for the play-offs with more losses than wins and a negative points difference.
Bomhead - "Lockers to prop."

the pieman
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by the pieman » Thu May 16, 2019 11:04 am

i think one of the things we could take from football is the money share at the end of the season.
correct me if i am wrong but in SL all clubs get an equal share of the TV money, and there is no tiering thereafter of money for each position in the league, other than for finishing top?

surely there should be some incentive (this also ties in with a post in warrior forum) to push to finish as high up the league as possible and make the matches meaningful. If there was 250 / 500k difference between 4th and 5th position in the normal SL season, i am pretty sure that we wouldnt get some of the dead rubbers that we see with the current play off system.

perhaps we could do a half way house as i am sure that most clubs wouldnt want to lose the current £1.7m they get from sky, but if they received some of it and the rest went into the prize pot, then at least there are rewards on the pitch for performance and we put emphasis on the clubs to do marketing / selling the game to bring in other revenues, instead of relying on the sky money?

if we did away completely with just allocating the money to the clubs and it went into the prize pot, then there would be approx £20m per season. If each position was worth £250k, then 12th get £250k, up to 1st £3m. Add in play offs / whatever you want to call the season end and it could be financially worth it if you come top of the league and win the play offs, but are rewarded for on pitch performance and not mediocrity

i have posted this quickly as a thought based on reading this post and the one by ddttf (sorry if got name wrong) about taking away the biff etc :), so open to criticism, but shows that things could be done differently and learning from other sports off the field

nathan_rugby
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by nathan_rugby » Thu May 16, 2019 1:16 pm

the pieman wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:04 am
i think one of the things we could take from football is the money share at the end of the season.
correct me if i am wrong but in SL all clubs get an equal share of the TV money, and there is no tiering thereafter of money for each position in the league, other than for finishing top?

surely there should be some incentive (this also ties in with a post in warrior forum) to push to finish as high up the league as possible and make the matches meaningful. If there was 250 / 500k difference between 4th and 5th position in the normal SL season, i am pretty sure that we wouldnt get some of the dead rubbers that we see with the current play off system.

perhaps we could do a half way house as i am sure that most clubs wouldnt want to lose the current £1.7m they get from sky, but if they received some of it and the rest went into the prize pot, then at least there are rewards on the pitch for performance and we put emphasis on the clubs to do marketing / selling the game to bring in other revenues, instead of relying on the sky money?

if we did away completely with just allocating the money to the clubs and it went into the prize pot, then there would be approx £20m per season. If each position was worth £250k, then 12th get £250k, up to 1st £3m. Add in play offs / whatever you want to call the season end and it could be financially worth it if you come top of the league and win the play offs, but are rewarded for on pitch performance and not mediocrity

i have posted this quickly as a thought based on reading this post and the one by ddttf (sorry if got name wrong) about taking away the biff etc :), so open to criticism, but shows that things could be done differently and learning from other sports off the field
Whilst a very good suggestion, the fact we have a salary cap to even the playing field and allow all teams the same opportunity to win, this idea goes against that. It would be seen as the teams at the top getting better and richer and the teams at the bottom suffering. The result is a league of good teams, average and terrible rather than some excellent.
Bomhead - "Lockers to prop."

the pieman
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by the pieman » Thu May 16, 2019 3:52 pm

nathan_rugby wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:16 pm
the pieman wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:04 am
i think one of the things we could take from football is the money share at the end of the season.
correct me if i am wrong but in SL all clubs get an equal share of the TV money, and there is no tiering thereafter of money for each position in the league, other than for finishing top?

surely there should be some incentive (this also ties in with a post in warrior forum) to push to finish as high up the league as possible and make the matches meaningful. If there was 250 / 500k difference between 4th and 5th position in the normal SL season, i am pretty sure that we wouldnt get some of the dead rubbers that we see with the current play off system.

perhaps we could do a half way house as i am sure that most clubs wouldnt want to lose the current £1.7m they get from sky, but if they received some of it and the rest went into the prize pot, then at least there are rewards on the pitch for performance and we put emphasis on the clubs to do marketing / selling the game to bring in other revenues, instead of relying on the sky money?

if we did away completely with just allocating the money to the clubs and it went into the prize pot, then there would be approx £20m per season. If each position was worth £250k, then 12th get £250k, up to 1st £3m. Add in play offs / whatever you want to call the season end and it could be financially worth it if you come top of the league and win the play offs, but are rewarded for on pitch performance and not mediocrity

i have posted this quickly as a thought based on reading this post and the one by ddttf (sorry if got name wrong) about taking away the biff etc :), so open to criticism, but shows that things could be done differently and learning from other sports off the field
Whilst a very good suggestion, the fact we have a salary cap to even the playing field and allow all teams the same opportunity to win, this idea goes against that. It would be seen as the teams at the top getting better and richer and the teams at the bottom suffering. The result is a league of good teams, average and terrible rather than some excellent.
it would, but at the same time has the salary cap ( i know has been subject of many a topic) actually worked. Only Wigan, Saints, Leeds and Bradford have won SL, and we still have clubs in financial difficulty.

when i was writing my original post, i would be pretty certain that the majority of clubs wouldnt vote for it based on 1. the sky money is easy money and 2. if they perform poorly they dont get as much.

However that just ties up with some of the reasons why i am disillusioned with the game at the minute. IMO it feels like the clubs are happy to take the sky money, and do little to attract new sponsors, fans etc. I know Wigan in the past have tried different things i.e. TV advert, game in London, game in Oz, but in reality how much did that actually generate. Wire seem to have pulled their fingers out this year and making a real go at marketing, but generally it appears very laboured or lacking.

i am sure that with the premier league, that the clubs get TV money (not sure how that is shared out), plus then money for league position.

Lazy J
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by Lazy J » Thu May 16, 2019 4:23 pm

the pieman wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:52 pm

However that just ties up with some of the reasons why i am disillusioned with the game at the minute. IMO it feels like the clubs are happy to take the sky money, and do little to attract new sponsors, fans etc. I know Wigan in the past have tried different things i.e. TV advert, game in London, game in Oz, but in reality how much did that actually generate. Wire seem to have pulled their fingers out this year and making a real go at marketing, but generally it appears very laboured or lacking.

i am sure that with the premier league, that the clubs get TV money (not sure how that is shared out), plus then money for league position.
football is awash with cash, here's some figures posted before the Leeds and Derby semi final last night

"In the 2017-18 season, every club in the Premier League was handed £80.4m, including rock-bottom side West Brom, and the Baggies finished the campaign with a total of £94.7m.

This was broken down into TV income, which offers a guaranteed prize of £12.3m and further bonuses if more than 10 matches are televised, prize money, which for West Brom was £1.9m, as well as their equal share."

The football title race this year was excellent, but most years its done and dusted about 3 weeks from the end of the year, with normally the only interest being at the bottom. sport cant always be that exciting, but it should always be a spectacle. and in all sport you will have your dead rubber matches that have minimal impact on the league.

RLs biggest problem is its perceived value, we gave away title sponsorship for some adverts on a truck, its difficult to sell something you used to give away, that's why giving away tickets to boost attendances is a false economy.

look at the names on the boards behind the players during sky interviews, Bachelors mushy peas, and Renault's bargain brand, not exactly blue chip. there are more and more sports chasing less and less sponsors, people hark back to the old days of the 80s and 90s it was the silk cut challenge cup, the stones bitter premiership, beer and fags.

Now its bookies and online casinos that are doing the majority of sponsorship of sort the bigger companies get better exposure for thier money with football, it cost more, but its bang for your buck.

but i do agree the constant drive to speed the game up is not working, it has to safe to play, so shoulder charges and the old Cumberland throw tackle should be outlawed.

but incidents like Saturday and Tommys tackle are systematic of the game at the moment, that showed the best of the game, crunching defense turned to attack in a split second, no shoulder charges or head contact, and the try is disallowed because it appeared to hit a hand.

but do i have the answers, i wish i did.
There are 10 types of people, those who get binary and those who dont!

DaveO
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by DaveO » Thu May 16, 2019 5:07 pm

the pieman wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:04 am
perhaps we could do a half way house as i am sure that most clubs wouldnt want to lose the current £1.7m they get from sky, but if they received some of it and the rest went into the prize pot, then at least there are rewards on the pitch for performance and we put emphasis on the clubs to do marketing / selling the game to bring in other revenues, instead of relying on the sky money?

if we did away completely with just allocating the money to the clubs and it went into the prize pot, then there would be approx £20m per season. If each position was worth £250k, then 12th get £250k, up to 1st £3m. Add in play offs / whatever you want to call the season end and it could be financially worth it if you come top of the league and win the play offs, but are rewarded for on pitch performance and not mediocrity

i have posted this quickly as a thought based on reading this post and the one by ddttf (sorry if got name wrong) about taking away the biff etc :), so open to criticism, but shows that things could be done differently and learning from other sports off the field
The clubs actually get the full £2m of the current salary cap paid from the Sky money. The difference in prize money is that the two teams who go to Wembley make a heck of a lot more money than the GF winners because the gate money from the GF is shared out between more teams. All those in the playoffs I think.

Both Mo Lindsay and IL were and are keen to get to Wembley because the extra income helps the general club finances, not because it helps with the wages.

I am also pretty sure the teams get the Sky money up front otherwise how can they afford to pay the players wages? So if a team has finished 12th and had paid to the cap you would have to demand £1.75m back off them!

the pieman
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Re: Lessons From Football

Post by the pieman » Thu May 16, 2019 5:35 pm

DaveO wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:07 pm
the pieman wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 11:04 am
perhaps we could do a half way house as i am sure that most clubs wouldnt want to lose the current £1.7m they get from sky, but if they received some of it and the rest went into the prize pot, then at least there are rewards on the pitch for performance and we put emphasis on the clubs to do marketing / selling the game to bring in other revenues, instead of relying on the sky money?

if we did away completely with just allocating the money to the clubs and it went into the prize pot, then there would be approx £20m per season. If each position was worth £250k, then 12th get £250k, up to 1st £3m. Add in play offs / whatever you want to call the season end and it could be financially worth it if you come top of the league and win the play offs, but are rewarded for on pitch performance and not mediocrity

i have posted this quickly as a thought based on reading this post and the one by ddttf (sorry if got name wrong) about taking away the biff etc :), so open to criticism, but shows that things could be done differently and learning from other sports off the field
The clubs actually get the full £2m of the current salary cap paid from the Sky money. The difference in prize money is that the two teams who go to Wembley make a heck of a lot more money than the GF winners because the gate money from the GF is shared out between more teams. All those in the playoffs I think.

Both Mo Lindsay and IL were and are keen to get to Wembley because the extra income helps the general club finances, not because it helps with the wages.

I am also pretty sure the teams get the Sky money up front otherwise how can they afford to pay the players wages? So if a team has finished 12th and had paid to the cap you would have to demand £1.75m back off them!


not sure if i hit the bold / underlined too many times

but that was the point i was trying to make about the clubs getting lazy. It is too easy to rely on the Sky money to pay the players wages, so no other incentive to market the club / game etc and try and bring in other sources of revenue. I know that clubs will be doing things, but are they really putting everything into attracting new sponsors, marketing the game so that they arent reliant on just the sky money.

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