Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

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Caboosegg
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by Caboosegg »

morley pie eater wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:40 pm For comparison with the cap and players' wages, it would be useful to know how much people like Ralph Rimmer and others at RFL/SL earn (individually and collectively).

Have we gone the way of Amazon and Ocado, where the executives earn massive amounts while the troops are paid peanuts?
Going off the payoff alone to Woods you would presume Yes
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by DaveO »

Caboosegg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:12 am I agree with most apart from that it matters if the player on the pitch earns more than the fan watching... it doesn't and to think it does risks the football route of over inflated wages
It matters in the sense that if you pay peanuts, you get monkey's which is what I thought Offiah's point was. He mentioned wages of £30k for example. Plenty of people will be earning more than that especially after 10 years in a job.

It's a full time sport where you are expected to dedicate yourself as a full time professional so are being asked to forgo getting a career going in another profession (or a different sport) for about 10 years or so. At the end of that time that's it, your out (for most players), you won't have enough to retire on and must set off trying to sort yourself out a career 10 years behind your contemporaries with a CV that says RL player which aren't particularly transferable skills.

For the standards we expect of our players they are woefully underpaid. For 2020 the RFL minimum wage was cut to £15,000 which is less than what you would have got working full time on the "National Living Wage" (i.e. minimum wage). A joke.

If the salary cap that was £1.8m that came in in 2002 had kept pace with inflation never mind other sports it would be about £2.625m today.
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by Mike »

nathan_rugby wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:26 pm
Caboosegg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:12 am I agree with most apart from that it matters if the player on the pitch earns more than the fan watching... it doesn't and to think it does risks the football route of over inflated wages
What is the risk of over inflated wages?

Clubs can either afford to pay the wages or they cannot.

If players demand too much they will price themselves out of moves.
I suppose the risk is that the game becomes dominated by 1 or possilby 2 teams that can afford it. That's unlikely to include us any more. Its not that big of a difference from now TBH, and I suppose it provides an incentive for a big money funder to come in and improve their team - right now they can't do that so they wouldn't be incentivised to come at all.

I'd run a salary capped system with central pooling of incomes and central contracts personally. i.e. a whole sport business - that way Hearn, or an investment corp could come in and improve the whole sport and be incentivised to make money for themselves whilst improving the game. I also like the idea of allowing expansion / promoted teams to strengthen by selecting players from other teams in a restricted way, allowing them to get quickly to the standard of SL on entry. Toulouse now have to go with their current champioship squad, plus anyone that's poor enough to not yet have a contract after Leigh went down. Very difficult for them to be competitive and stay up, regardless of what money they have.
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DaveO
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by DaveO »

Mike wrote:
nathan_rugby wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:26 pm
Caboosegg wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:12 am I agree with most apart from that it matters if the player on the pitch earns more than the fan watching... it doesn't and to think it does risks the football route of over inflated wages
What is the risk of over inflated wages?

Clubs can either afford to pay the wages or they cannot.

If players demand too much they will price themselves out of moves.
I suppose the risk is that the game becomes dominated by 1 or possilby 2 teams that can afford it. That's unlikely to include us any more. Its not that big of a difference from now TBH, and I suppose it provides an incentive for a big money funder to come in and improve their team - right now they can't do that so they wouldn't be incentivised to come at all.

I'd run a salary capped system with central pooling of incomes and central contracts personally. i.e. a whole sport business - that way Hearn, or an investment corp could come in and improve the whole sport and be incentivised to make money for themselves whilst improving the game. I also like the idea of allowing expansion / promoted teams to strengthen by selecting players from other teams in a restricted way, allowing them to get quickly to the standard of SL on entry. Toulouse now have to go with their current champioship squad, plus anyone that's poor enough to not yet have a contract after Leigh went down. Very difficult for them to be competitive and stay up, regardless of what money they have.
So Wigan develop a player from junior level and he becomes a first team regular and Toulouse can say “We will have him thank you very much”?

This would never work. You would have to put so many caveats into who they could take it would probably end up no different to picking from the cast offs.

Then there is the player himself to consider. You can’t force someone to go and live in France. Or it seems Wigan for that matter (Hardaker). Forcing a player to leave a team he wanted to
play for presumably because he wanted to sign a contract for them is never going to fly.
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by Mike »

DaveO wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:29 pm
Mike wrote:
nathan_rugby wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:26 pm

What is the risk of over inflated wages?

Clubs can either afford to pay the wages or they cannot.

If players demand too much they will price themselves out of moves.
I suppose the risk is that the game becomes dominated by 1 or possilby 2 teams that can afford it. That's unlikely to include us any more. Its not that big of a difference from now TBH, and I suppose it provides an incentive for a big money funder to come in and improve their team - right now they can't do that so they wouldn't be incentivised to come at all.

I'd run a salary capped system with central pooling of incomes and central contracts personally. i.e. a whole sport business - that way Hearn, or an investment corp could come in and improve the whole sport and be incentivised to make money for themselves whilst improving the game. I also like the idea of allowing expansion / promoted teams to strengthen by selecting players from other teams in a restricted way, allowing them to get quickly to the standard of SL on entry. Toulouse now have to go with their current champioship squad, plus anyone that's poor enough to not yet have a contract after Leigh went down. Very difficult for them to be competitive and stay up, regardless of what money they have.
So Wigan develop a player from junior level and he becomes a first team regular and Toulouse can say “We will have him thank you very much”?

This would never work. You would have to put so many caveats into who they could take it would probably end up no different to picking from the cast offs.

Then there is the player himself to consider. You can’t force someone to go and live in France. Or it seems Wigan for that matter (Hardaker). Forcing a player to leave a team he wanted to
play for presumably because he wanted to sign a contract for them is never going to fly.
Works fine in the NHL for example.
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nathan_rugby
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by nathan_rugby »

The salary cap at its current level restricts the sport, it should be removed.

The idea of why it was needed was correct but it hasn’t grown with inflation and isn’t aligned to RU and NRL so has become detrimental.

The problem is will there ever be a majority vote where it gets voted to increase or remove?

I doubt it, there isn’t enough money available in enough teams to make it worthwhile? Although it could help the sport grow, why would Wakefield and Hull KR vote for it?
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by jaws1 »

nathan_rugby wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 7:13 am The salary cap at its current level restricts the sport, it should be removed.

The idea of why it was needed was correct but it hasn’t grown with inflation and isn’t aligned to RU and NRL so has become detrimental.

The problem is will there ever be a majority vote where it gets voted to increase or remove?

I doubt it, there isn’t enough money available in enough teams to make it worthwhile? Although it could help the sport grow, why would Wakefield and Hull KR vote for it?
Let the players make money away from the sport if for example Sam Tomkins advertises Brut on tv would give the game a higher profile and not restrict the players income to make more .
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by DaveO »

Mike wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:08 pm
DaveO wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:29 pm
Mike wrote:
I suppose the risk is that the game becomes dominated by 1 or possibly 2 teams that can afford it. That's unlikely to include us any more. Its not that big of a difference from now TBH, and I suppose it provides an incentive for a big money funder to come in and improve their team - right now they can't do that so they wouldn't be incentivised to come at all.

I'd run a salary capped system with central pooling of incomes and central contracts personally. i.e. a whole sport business - that way Hearn, or an investment corp could come in and improve the whole sport and be incentivised to make money for themselves whilst improving the game. I also like the idea of allowing expansion / promoted teams to strengthen by selecting players from other teams in a restricted way, allowing them to get quickly to the standard of SL on entry. Toulouse now have to go with their current championship squad, plus anyone that's poor enough to not yet have a contract after Leigh went down. Very difficult for them to be competitive and stay up, regardless of what money they have.
So Wigan develop a player from junior level and he becomes a first team regular and Toulouse can say “We will have him thank you very much”?

This would never work. You would have to put so many caveats into who they could take it would probably end up no different to picking from the cast offs.

Then there is the player himself to consider. You can’t force someone to go and live in France. Or it seems Wigan for that matter (Hardaker). Forcing a player to leave a team he wanted to
play for presumably because he wanted to sign a contract for them is never going to fly.
Works fine in the NHL for example.
The NHL draft is a draft of junior players and European prospects not a mechanism for clubs to poach another clubs established players which is what I think you are suggesting.

Once a player is drafted the club holds his NHL contract from ages 20-27 so this doesn't allow what I think you mean which is the likes of Toulouse to have first pick of a selection of other clubs first team established (and therefore contracted) players.

Many NHL draftees seemingly don't actually make it to be NHL pro players anyway as once drafted get sent back to their junior leagues, the clubs keep an eye on them and if they don't progress they don't end up as a senior player in the NHL.

I just looked it up and what I found was the draft is made up of "All players who will be 18 years old on or before September 15 and not older than 20 years old before December 31 of the draft year are eligible for selection for that year’s NHL Entry Draft. In addition, non-North American players over the age of 20 are eligible.

The players are drafted from three major pools:

1. Major junior hockey leagues in Canada and the USA: The Canadian Hockey League (CHL) in Canada – comprised of Western Hockey League (WHL), Ontario Hockey League, Quebec Major Junior Hockey League (QMJHL) – the United States Junior Hockey League (USHL) and Canadian provincial junior hockey leagues
2. European junior and senior men’s hockey leagues
3. NCAA teams (college players)

https://hockeyanswered.com/how-the-nhl- ... ete-guide/

So the draft is restricted to 18 & 19 year olds and players not from existing teams but from Canadian and American junior leagues, North American Colleges and from European teams (which is like saying SL is free to sign NRL players).

What NHL draft isn't, is a mechanism for the likes Toulouse to poach an established player from Wigan and it's also not even a mechanism to poach another clubs junior players (who they will have developed themselves) because they don't seem to have any. Like the NFL in the US, it seem junior development in the NHL is solely a college/junior league thing.

From what I can gather they seem to make a big thing about it. It all seems part of the show but given the club they are drafted to owns the players NHL contracts when they are aged 20 to 27 then the only way they will move clubs is if they are traded i.e. the same as a transfer in SL so I don't see how an NHL draft system giving Toulouse a pick of 18 & 19 year olds would help.
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by Levrier »

Rather than throwing money at one of two marquee players whilst keeping the rest on a tight budget we would have been better growing the cap on line with inflation and setting reasonable minimums for the lowest paid players. Quite why we seem so against allowing players to maximise income through advertising and external revenue is beyond me. Now we have a faceless sport with no nationally recognisable faces still playing. Have we been taking tips on levelling up from Boris?
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Re: Martin Offiah delivers damning verdict on current state of Super League with major warning

Post by josie andrews »

Levrier wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:26 pm Rather than throwing money at one of two marquee players whilst keeping the rest on a tight budget we would have been better growing the cap on line with inflation and setting reasonable minimums for the lowest paid players. Quite why we seem so against allowing players to maximise income through advertising and external revenue is beyond me. Now we have a faceless sport with no nationally recognisable faces still playing. Have we been taking tips on levelling up from Boris?
I’ve said this all along, don’t care who they are, to pay one or two players an incredible amount of money while the others are on small contracts is what creates bad feeling in camps IMO!

Jake Shorrocks is on more money at Newcastle Thunder than what he was on here!

And yes, let the players earn money from advertising or whatever to maximise their wage is a no brainer!

Since this stopped there isn’t one player from Rugby League that is known outside of the sport anymore! Then we wonder why tv monies keep plummeting 🤨 Excepting Rob Burrow atm 😢
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