League v Union rivalry

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morley pie eater
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Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

League v Union rivalry

Post by morley pie eater »

Saw a mention of Leeds Tykes (aka Leeds Carnegie) no longer playing at Headingley. I did a bit of googling and was surprised to discover (since I take no interest in the sport) that they are bottom of the 3rd tier of Union, and playing at a small ground on the edge of Leeds at Bramhope.

It seems that Paul Caddick, the property tycoon who took over the Headingley ground years ago, and was a union man, has woken up and smelt the coffee. He seems to have realised that there's virtually no crossover of Rhinos fans also watching union, and little support for union in Leeds at all. (A comment I read mentioned them drawing 2,000 when they were in the top division - not able to check if this is accurate, but it seems unlikely that they managed a half-full stadium at best.)

The team also lost the support of Carnegie college (part of Leeds Metropolitan University), hence changing the name back to Tykes.

I followed up by checking out Orrell, who also disappeared from view. They seem to be in a local Lancs/Cheshire league, presumably well down the pecking order.

Now I know it's not nice to gloat, and all's not well in RL - "people who live in glass houses..", but my point is this:

Union fans taunt us with the "M62 corridor" stuff, but it seems that, for all the money they may have behind them, they're incapable of making inroads in league territory. Sale are the only possible exception, but I'm not sure that they're truly in "our" patch or how successful they are, especially at attracting support.

And that makes me feel a bit better about our problems.
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AndyNick
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by AndyNick »

I'm something of a rarity in that I'm a fan of both codes. I've always played Union (never fit enough to play League) but I've always enjoyed watching league. I'm a season ticket holder at Wigan, I also attend Wasps games whenever I can as well as Scotland games at at Murrayfield, (I'm there Sunday for the Australia game)

The first thing I'd say is that for anyone associated with Wigan RL to poke fun at the plight of Orrell is a little bit below the belt!! That said you do make some valid points about Rugby Union in the North of England.

Sale and Newcastle are the only two pro teams representing the entire North (London alone has 4) and the next northernmost club after Sale is Leicester. Whilst Sale get better crowds at the AJ Bell than Salford do they still don't sell it out on a regular basis, Newcastle play outside the City centre and again get around 5-10k. Compare that with Leicester and Northampton who regularly get 15k plus and well out the majority of home games. Leeds Tykes/Carneige was always a vanity project and another issue they faced was that there are some established traditional clubs such as Rotherham and Doncaster with decent sized fan bases who were never going to support a pro club in Leeds. Union trying to crack Leeds was a little like League trying to crack South Wales. Didn't stop them trying!!

Being a kilt wearing jock, I can't stand the stereotypical Twickenham crowd either. Believe me they look down their nose at us, just as much as the League lot!! That said, for 6 Nations games they could sell it out several times over without ever going on general sale. Something league Internationals could only dream of.
moto748
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by moto748 »

Union also has adopted our laws in some areas (goal-line drop-outs,, and a 40/20 [sort of]}.
jobo
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by jobo »

AndyNick wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:33 pm I'm something of a rarity in that I'm a fan of both codes. I've always played Union (never fit enough to play League) but I've always enjoyed watching league. I'm a season ticket holder at Wigan, I also attend Wasps games whenever I can as well as Scotland games at at Murrayfield, (I'm there Sunday for the Australia game)

The first thing I'd say is that for anyone associated with Wigan RL to poke fun at the plight of Orrell is a little bit below the belt!! That said you do make some valid points about Rugby Union in the North of England.

Sale and Newcastle are the only two pro teams representing the entire North (London alone has 4) and the next northernmost club after Sale is Leicester. Whilst Sale get better crowds at the AJ Bell than Salford do they still don't sell it out on a regular basis, Newcastle play outside the City centre and again get around 5-10k. Compare that with Leicester and Northampton who regularly get 15k plus and well out the majority of home games. Leeds Tykes/Carneige was always a vanity project and another issue they faced was that there are some established traditional clubs such as Rotherham and Doncaster with decent sized fan bases who were never going to support a pro club in Leeds. Union trying to crack Leeds was a little like League trying to crack South Wales. Didn't stop them trying!!

Being a kilt wearing jock, I can't stand the stereotypical Twickenham crowd either. Believe me they look down their nose at us, just as much as the League lot!! That said, for 6 Nations games they could sell it out several times over without ever going on general sale. Something league Internationals could only dream of.
Don't think Morley was poking fun at Orrell, or taking pleasure in their fall from the top table. I'd say, it's a general point about the strength of professional RU north of south Manchester.

You're correct about the 5 nations of course. The competition is the goose that lays the golden egg and without it, RU would be in much the same state that RL is in.
the pieman
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by the pieman »

AndyNick wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:33 pm

Being a kilt wearing jock, I can't stand the stereotypical Twickenham crowd either. Believe me they look down their nose at us, just as much as the League lot!! That said, for 6 Nations games they could sell it out several times over without ever going on general sale. Something league Internationals could only dream of.
This is one of the big problems for Rugby League generally. Whilst we have never had the queues to get tickets like they do for games at Twickers, RL can and should be attracting big crowds. There has been a steady decline at international level and also club level over the last few years.

i remember going to Wembley, Old Trafford and Ellend Rd for test series, with big crowds at all 3 stadiums. Now we restrict ourselves to Wigan, Huddersfield and Hull, then shout because we have sold about 25k tickets. We should be at least doubling that for the Ozzies and Kiwi games (i appreciate that the Ozzies are always the bigger crowd pull), so for me it is a real frustration that we no longer look to fill a big stadium, but quite happy with trundling along and not setting some ambitious targets.

i have said before that there was one series / tri nations, that i didnt receive 1 piece of marketing to advertise that it was on. It was almost like the RFL just wanted fans to turn up without any form of advertising, whether that be social media, radio, tv, email etc etc

i love watching international rugby league (1st ever game was GB v Oz at Central Park in 1982), and have loved watching it ever since. My preference, albeit a name, would be to revert properly to GB for test series (not the most recent shambles of an attempt) v Oz / NZ / Tonga, and look to grow the game by having our own 5 nations (England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and France) to develop the international game in the Northern Hemisphere. The only way players will develop at that level is by regular games, but the RFL needs to have a plan and growth strategy to allow something like that to happen

finally back onto Twickers, i watched a documentary a good few years ago, and they basically oversold all home games 18months to 2 years in advance (not sure if they can or still do that), bank all the money, and then basically give it back to those who dont get tickets. They were making hefty amounts of interest on the money banked, so may not be worth doing that now as interest rates are crap :)
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jaws1
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by jaws1 »

morley pie eater wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:16 pm Saw a mention of Leeds Tykes (aka Leeds Carnegie) no longer playing at Headingley. I did a bit of googling and was surprised to discover (since I take no interest in the sport) that they are bottom of the 3rd tier of Union, and playing at a small ground on the edge of Leeds at Bramhope.

It seems that Paul Caddick, the property tycoon who took over the Headingley ground years ago, and was a union man, has woken up and smelt the coffee. He seems to have realised that there's virtually no crossover of Rhinos fans also watching union, and little support for union in Leeds at all. (A comment I read mentioned them drawing 2,000 when they were in the top division - not able to check if this is accurate, but it seems unlikely that they managed a half-full stadium at best.)

The team also lost the support of Carnegie college (part of Leeds Metropolitan University), hence changing the name back to Tykes.

I followed up by checking out Orrell, who also disappeared from view. They seem to be in a local Lancs/Cheshire league, presumably well down the pecking order.

Now I know it's not nice to gloat, and all's not well in RL - "people who live in glass houses..", but my point is this:

Union fans taunt us with the "M62 corridor" stuff, but it seems that, for all the money they may have behind them, they're incapable of making inroads in league territory. Sale are the only possible exception, but I'm not sure that they're truly in "our" patch or how successful they are, especially at attracting support.

And that makes me feel a bit better about our problems.
RU has its own corridors the M4 and M5 .I know that its played elsewhere but the top clubs are along these corridors.
morley pie eater
Posts: 3219
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by morley pie eater »

Thanks Jobo. You're right that I wasn't poking fun at Union (tho I'm by no means a fan!).

I guess my point is that most sports, apart from soccer, are struggling to a greater or lesser extent. Our plight may be more obvious/publicised than others, but it's not easy to establish a team in a new area - for any sport.

American football have the once a year big game in London, sure. But remember London Monarchs? And a team in Germany (Frankfurt?). How many $million have they pumped in to try to expand into Europe?

Me & Mrs Morley went on holiday in Ireland in the mid-90s. Passed through Tipperary and Limerick. It was semi-final time for either Gaelic Football or Hurling. Every other house we passed had a flag hanging out, supporting their team.

The sports are unknown in the rest of the world. They're (supposedly) amateur, and a player can only play for the county they were born in. Yet they survive, even thrive.

For all the doom and gloom about RL, and I have concerns about its direction, I think there's a community/inherited aspect to supporting a team or a sport that would take centuries to overcome. RL is ingrained in Wigan, in Hull, in West Yorks, Cumberland, even Sentellins!

It may change, it may even become semi-pro in the next few years, but it's more resilient than we sometimes fear. The failure of Union at Orrell and Leeds is evidence that it's extremely hard, despite money, hype or whatever, to displace a sport which is deeply ingrained in local communities, and in the minds of people....people like us.
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endoman
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by endoman »

We've tried to expand forever. It ain't going to happen at a pro level in Uk. Union has the corporate market sewn up. They could watch pig racing and it would make no difference, Union Internationals aren't about the sport, but the occasion. League is the diametric opposite. Club rules in RL, doubt that will ever change, but I love watching an Ashes game etc, and have watched them since early 80's. I'd rather watch a successful Wigan team though......

Spoke with a Man U " fan" last week who will give up his season ticket now it's all gone digital as he usually gives it to business clients. This is what RU is all about, business deals etc. My mate will still watch none league soccer, but not pay for Man U as he can't get his clients in on the fiddle.

I don't know the answer, but the RL heartland has a hell of a lot going for it compared with some of the morals of those in RU areas.
Blackpool_Pie
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by Blackpool_Pie »

endoman wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:34 pm Union Internationals aren't about the sport, but the occasion. League is the diametric opposite.
I absolutely disagree with this. As a Northern fan of both Union and League, I go to club and international games of both codes as frequent as possible, it's actually league who are almost trying to be more about creating an off pitch spectacle. Very rarely in union do you get pre match routines performed by mediocre singers, fireworks for every game, lights, lasers, fireworks and cheerleaders. In fact I've never seen a cheerleader at a single Union game come to think of it.
blindsideprop
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Re: League v Union rivalry

Post by blindsideprop »

blindsideprop wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 8:28 am
Blackpool_Pie wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:49 am
endoman wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:34 pm Union Internationals aren't about the sport, but the occasion. League is the diametric opposite.
I absolutely disagree with this. As a Northern fan of both Union and League, I go to club and international games of both codes as frequent as possible, it's actually league who are almost trying to be more about creating an off pitch spectacle. Very rarely in union do you get pre match routines performed by mediocre singers, fireworks for every game, lights, lasers, fireworks and cheerleaders. In fact I've never seen a cheerleader at a single Union game come to think of it.

You are quite right, and sad to say RL have to try ways of getting crowds in due to the game becoming less attractive to watch.
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