Knowles wins appeal

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josie andrews
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by josie andrews »

RFL Operational Rules Tribunal. 21st September 2022. ON/1147/22
His Honour Roger Thomas QC DL Danny Sculthorpe
Wilf George
Re: The Appeal of Morgan Knowles (St Helen’s) against a Decision (2 match suspension) of the ORT on 20th September 2022.


HHJ Roger Thomas opened the hearing, with panel members Wilf George and Danny Sculthorpe alongside, outlining the original charge which was under 15.1 (i)
Defender uses any part of their body forcefully to twist, bend or otherwise apply pressure to the limb or limbs of an opposing player in a way that involves an unacceptable risk of injury to that player.
and emphasising that this was not a re-hearing of the case but an appeal based on one of the limited number of areas an appeal could be made on, which are that the Operational Rules Tribunal:

• came to a decision to which no reasonable body could have come; or
• made an error of law in reaching its decision; or
• failed to act fairly in a procedural sense; or
• the sanction imposed was so excessive or lenient (in the case of the Compliance Manager) as
to be unreasonable.

St Helens’, in the form of CEO Mike Rush, contested that their challenge was based on the fact that the original tribunal’s decision was contradictory and they came to a decision to which no reasonable body could have come.

The basis for this argument was that as the original tribunal had agreed that the action of Mr Knowles was a professional foul in an attempt to slow the play the ball down; they could not say that either the player’s shoulder or indeed the player’s wrist at any point was in an unnatural position, although it appeared that the attacking player’s shoulder was put to the end of the range of its normal motion.
Whilst there could be a risk, as with every tackle on the rugby pitch, due to the lack of movement beyond its natural range, there was not an ‘unacceptable risk’ which was an element of the charge and all elements of that charge had to be met.

Although the original tribunal believed that Mr Knowles’ actions caused the attacking player to twist his trunk in the same direction as Mr Knowles was applying pressure, so as to avoid further injury to himself and was therefore in a vulnerable position such that any further force from Mr Knowles or indeed from any other tackler could easily have caused injury, their opinion that there was an unacceptable risk taken by the player was wrong, as they had already agreed that the arm was never in an unnatural position Mr Knowles’ actions were, therefore, not reckless.

The Appeals Panel did not hear any fresh evidence as this was not a new hearing but a review of the original hearing, and after deliberation they agreed that the original tribunal’s ruling that there was ‘unacceptable risk’ could not be the case if the player’s arm never extended beyond the natural range of movement and therefore deemed the appeal to be successful.


https://www.rugby-league.com/uploads/do ... inutes.pdf
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
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Dreamteam
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by Dreamteam »

Dan2266 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:36 am
Dreamteam wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:03 pm
Charriots Offiah wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:22 pm

That doesn’t make it right!
We’re 1 game away officially from the wellens era. That sounds good too me. I’ll be watching Saturday with a big smile on my face. Let’s hope
Knowles doesn’t have a bad game 👀
Theres a rumour going round that Matty Smith will be his assistant
Not heard that. Surely long is going back there with him leaving Leeds at the end of the year as well. He’s made Leeds attack unwatchable. Sounds like a fantastic trio for SL 😂
w.thomas
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by w.thomas »

The RFL are a disgrace and are spoiling the game. Terrible decision and makes themselves look like a bunch of amateurs.
josie andrews
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by josie andrews »

From a former Rugby League referee!!

https://twitter.com/silversref/status/1 ... 6m6GTS1WgQ
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
that takes a lot of courage. #18thMan
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Mike
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by Mike »

So this says that unless you were injured (after all if you're not injured the arm was never outside its natural range of movement) its not a foul or ban. Even if you take action to prevent injury (i.e. trying to stop your arm getting twisted off by rotating the rest of your body) directly as a result of the accused player's actions, its still not a foul unless they were successful in injuring you.

However, if the accused is not from Stains its a 4 week ban.
the pieman
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by the pieman »

so the solution is quite easy

1st time we play them next season - any player - get hold of his arm and rip it off around his back and see what happens then

Saints fans / Redvee would be in absolute meltdown with all the grub / scum etc etc calling of a Wigan player. Said player will get the book chucked at them ie 10 games, we appeal and say we did f*** all different to what Knowles did last year so f*** off and we'll see you in court if you dont over turn the ban

in all seriousness i'm not condoning retribution as it wasnt against one of our players but you can see that happening to him next year and every club just turning to the RFL with 2 fingers up to them if they try to ban that player as they've set a ridiculous precedent now and he will / Saints will only have themselves to blame as its not just Salford or Leeds who are feeling aggrieved by this decision
josie andrews
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by josie andrews »

the pieman wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm so the solution is quite easy

1st time we play them next season - any player - get hold of his arm and rip it off around his back and see what happens then

Saints fans / Redvee would be in absolute meltdown with all the grub / scum etc etc calling of a Wigan player. Said player will get the book chucked at them ie 10 games, we appeal and say we did f*** all different to what Knowles did last year so f*** off and we'll see you in court if you dont over turn the ban

in all seriousness i'm not condoning retribution as it wasnt against one of our players but you can see that happening to him next year and every club just turning to the RFL with 2 fingers up to them if they try to ban that player as they've set a ridiculous precedent now and he will / Saints will only have themselves to blame as its not just Salford or Leeds who are feeling aggrieved by this decision
They’re calling us now on Twitter about this & we weren’t even involved in the game!
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
that takes a lot of courage. #18thMan
the pieman
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Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 5:34 pm

Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by the pieman »

josie andrews wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:05 pm
the pieman wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:20 pm so the solution is quite easy

1st time we play them next season - any player - get hold of his arm and rip it off around his back and see what happens then

Saints fans / Redvee would be in absolute meltdown with all the grub / scum etc etc calling of a Wigan player. Said player will get the book chucked at them ie 10 games, we appeal and say we did f*** all different to what Knowles did last year so f*** off and we'll see you in court if you dont over turn the ban

in all seriousness i'm not condoning retribution as it wasnt against one of our players but you can see that happening to him next year and every club just turning to the RFL with 2 fingers up to them if they try to ban that player as they've set a ridiculous precedent now and he will / Saints will only have themselves to blame as its not just Salford or Leeds who are feeling aggrieved by this decision
They’re calling us now on Twitter about this & we weren’t even involved in the game!
i was arguing with some on Facebook earlier this week. One of my former work colleagues proper gone off on one cos everyone was calling his beloved Saints after Knowles had got banned.
I merely said he was the worst poster on FB as he complains about the slightest of indiscretions from a Wigan player but words it as scum / grub etc every single time, so if a Wigan player had done that how would he have responded - no response. I also asked him if he would be happy if that happened to a Saints player next season cos he accepts its just a normal tackle - again the silence was deafening.

i had a picture of a Leeds player with the ball on his hip with 2 Wigan players in the tackle, and they are claiming that the Wigan player was chicken winging the Leeds player in the same way as Knowles based off a still where Smith was no-where near the Leeds players arm with his arms and allegedly Bateman stuck his fingers up Bentleys arse (but they never provided a photo of that)

And the final point of the argument was that only Saints have had players out this year - we only beat them in the semi final because they had players out, pretty sure we were 5-6 out too, but hey ho, they are the bestest team in the world ever, so i shut that down too and asked who had won the most trophies, and let them have their moment in the limelight
widdenoldboy
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by widdenoldboy »

Apologies for the bad taste but shouldn't we appeal about Bateman's ban as Sezer's head was not in an unnatural position (ie it was still on his shoulders) after the tackle AND he was only trying to slow the PTB...

There has been a lot of weasel words in defence of the decision but its a bad look for the sport.
widdenoldboy
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Re: Knowles wins appeal

Post by widdenoldboy »

Image

Saints practice "tackling" techniques before tomorrows Grand Final
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