England Vs Samoa

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Wintergreen
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by Wintergreen »

Welsby was very poor, as was Watkins (who was playing with a knock to say the least). Tbh I think Welsbyh was injured for the last 15 too. Unfortunately the bench didn't cover this (unless you think Bateman to centre is acceptable in an international team).

Samoa picked out McIllorum in defence. There were times when he was too knackered to go to dummy half. With a different coach he is nowhere near the team.

When Radley went to 9 we looked the sharpest we had all match. That's my observation anyway.

Wane put McIllorum back on and we dipped almost instantly.


For the record I am not a "Wane hater". I can't but help like the guy, but he got a few things wrong today.
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EagleEyePie
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by EagleEyePie »

I think Shaun Wane got some things wrong in this tournament but ultimately a lot of the blame has to fall on the players for today's performances. Why wouldn't Wane stick with that side when they've performed pretty well up to that point. They'd shown what they were capable of and then didn't deliver.

Ultimately we had a bombed try from Makinson early on, a terrible mistake from Watkins by failing to ground the ball, shocking defending from Watkins for the first try, a complete switch off from Welsby for the second. McIlorum had a poor day in defence but ultimately the middle forwards allowed that to happen - every 9 would get targeted by the big forwards if they are allowed to.

Welsby showed some real quality in previous games but was shocking today. I'm not going to criticise him too much or revel in the fact a Saints player didn't perform. Ultimately I thought one player we missed was Lomax. He wouldn't have put in a performance like Welsby did, he's a smart passer but also consistent and his kicking game is far better.

I thought England's kicking game was poor but can we blame Wane too much? Sneyd was an option but Sneyd isn't good enough at the highest level - particularly defensively. Maybe Tomkins could have moved to the halves and Welsby to 1 but things had worked well the way they were.

There are some concerns for England. We need better options at centre, we need the next generation of halves to reach the top of their game pretty quickly so we've got support for Williams because Lomax is around 32 now and has had injury issues. We're lacking quality at hooker and we need some younger bodies in the forwards because while the likes of Bateman, McMeeken and Batchelor are in their late 20's and have a few years left in them unless they improve we're not moving to another level and Whitehead probably won't play in the next world cup. Likewise the props. I thought Hill and Cooper did well but it's not good enough that those in their mid-30's still haven't been surpassed by younger players.

Edit: Forgot to mention, Wane's faith in McIlorum is completely unjustified. He wasn't good enough for England years ago, which is why he stopped being selected. He does a job but is severely limited in aspects of the game that are essential at the highest level. He doesn't even have the fitness levels to play the way he tries to. At least at 34 he's unlikely to play for England again. I know all coaches have their favourites but Wane has a real blind spot when it comes to McIlorum.
Last edited by EagleEyePie on Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
medlocke
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by medlocke »

Typical British rugby league fan crack, win a couple of games convincingly and all of a sudden we are the saviours of the game (I was thinking that as well), but as usual the standard of the British game shines through, oh well that's all that done and dusted and thank god we won't suffer the embarrassment of a 50+ tonking
nathan_rugby
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by nathan_rugby »

Wintergreen wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:45 pm
Caboosegg wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:39 pm
Wintergreen wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:32 pm

His game management.
Sorry your talking Wet. 3 Samao tries and the position for the drop goal came of individual errors. That wasn't game management. Micky Mac doesn't set a foot wrong in the game but you single his selection and Wane out.

Welsby knocked on in GP, Tomkins threw a forward pass maybe the shouldn't have been picked?
You don't think we dipped when McIllorum came back on? It's a view I suppose.....
“Dipping” didn’t cause us to lose the game.

Poor game management and unforced errors did.
- interception - Radley
- stupid pass on 5th - Williams
- forward pass - Tomkins
- knock on - Welsby
Bomhead - "Lockers to prop."
cherry toffee
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by cherry toffee »

Agree with meds when we’re putting cricket scores on the likes of Lebanon and PNG the pundits were talking about perfect performances and flawless games, as soon as we play someone decent we fall apart , Leeds released Watkins two years ago because he wasn’t good enough at centre and here he is in a World Cup semi , just not good enough at top level
nathan_rugby
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by nathan_rugby »

cherry toffee wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:18 pm Agree with meds when we’re putting cricket scores on the likes of Lebanon and PNG the pundits were talking about perfect performances and flawless games, as soon as we play someone decent we fall apart , Leeds released Watkins two years ago because he wasn’t good enough at centre and here he is in a World Cup semi , just not good enough at top level
Everyone would complain if they slated the opposition and said it’s poor standard and not good preparation.

What do you expect them to say?
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Wintergreen
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by Wintergreen »

medlocke wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:41 pm Typical British rugby league fan crack, win a couple of games convincingly and all of a sudden we are the saviours of the game (I was thinking that as well), but as usual the standard of the British game shines through, oh well that's all that done and dusted and thank god we won't suffer the embarrassment of a 50+ tonking
Yes. In a years time nobody will remember England going out in the semis.

If we lost 50-0 in the final, the Austrailians would be dining out on it for 10 years.
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Firestarter
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by Firestarter »

Certain players bottled it today….. tomkins didnt want to run the ball but was ok hitting grounded players and slapping heads…… young was having a great tournament then decided he didnt like big hits/ pressure……. Welsby way out of his depth at half and it showed as williams was the sole creator…… watkins was awful and like tomkins is past it at this level….. i thought the pack was okish but i dont think the selection was right….. ackers was a must for me
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cherry toffee
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by cherry toffee »

To Nathan rugby I’d expect pundits to be honest and diplomatic don’t rub the beaten teams nose in it but don’t bull the winners up to something they’re not
Barney841
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Re: England Vs Samoa

Post by Barney841 »

We missed roby at hooker I thought.
Mickey offers aggression in defence but doesn’t offer much from the PTB, he fell off a few tackles as well because he was going for the big hit.
Watkins wasn’t great in the first half, he should be scoring that try as well
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