will it make a difference

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jammie
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will it make a difference

Post by jammie »

will it make a difference to how many imports all SL clubs have if & when there is no relagation/promotion to be bothered about? would clubs invest in home grown players knowing it may take a few seasons to start reaping the rewards,and will the fans still turn up week after week knowing what they are trying to do?i think it's the only way forward to cut down on all the imports
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cpwigan
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Re: will it make a difference

Post by cpwigan »

No promotion/relegation will have no impact. Clubs want success, supporters want success. quality young players are scarce and a bit of a lottery. KOLPAK = plentiful and safer. The only way is to provide a financila bonus re slary cap etc if you develop youngsters and ppenalise if you use kolpak players. That would tip the scales.
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lucky 13
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by lucky 13 »

i think it would make it possible to bring on young player's if no relagation but CP idea is better maybe both ,players under 21 don't count alowing teams with good youth systems time to bring the lads through slowly, maybe your squad of 20 should have at least 7 players who come through your youth system ,the kolpak alows as many player's as you want in your squad ,but ,''don't know if it's legal'',you have to have 16 player's who can play for GB ,at the moment you have to play lads to much at a level they are not ready for ,if you have good young player's your first team suffer's, when these player's become star's or just good squad player's other teams wich spend less on youth snatch them away also no defence against RU ,'ie'squad player's wild aspinall,young player's like brown too much too soon, bradford lost pryce,leeds walker to union .
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DaveO
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by DaveO »

cpwigan posted:
No promotion/relegation will have no impact. Clubs want success, supporters want success. quality young players are scarce and a bit of a lottery. KOLPAK = plentiful and safer. The only way is to provide a financila bonus re slary cap etc if you develop youngsters and ppenalise if you use kolpak players. That would tip the scales.
I would not be averse to any rule that could be enforced to guarantee more development at clubs but to say categorically no relegation won't have an effect on how clubs approach player recruitment and development is far too simplistic a view.

Relegation often means panic buying of players. We did it last season not with Kolpaks but with the likes of James and Wilkes but most clubs bring in Kolpaks for the same reason - to avoid relegation as Wakefield have openly admitted.

Take away relegation and the need to panic buy goes away. The idea they will still buy these players to achieve success does not stand up to scrutiny IMO for the following reasons.

At some point in the season it will be obvious several sides will not be contesting the playoffs or be in the last rounds of the cup. With relegation they must still take the short term view in order to avoid relegation and spend as much of their salary cap money on senior players, usually Kolpaks, as they can.

Without relegation they don't have the short term pressure so can effectively write the season off and take a longer term view giving game time to younger British players. It is no use saying the fans lust for success will prevent this long term thinking because once a team is out of contention for honours, they are out of contention so the chance of success has gone anyway.

So it is how you use what remains of your unsuccessful season that differs depending on whether or not there is p&r.

With P&r the short term view always prevails for the bottom teams. Without it there is no need to take the short term view but planning for next season can start right away.

Clubs facing relegation can't do that at all as we saw with Cas and Wakey.

That is you end up with ludicrous situations like that which faced Scunthorpe and the clubs he was involved with.

His future depended on which of the relegation candidates went down. We didn't know if we would have to honour his contract. Cas wanted him but could not sign him and he ended up at a different club entirely.

Ludicrous and none of that would have happened without p&r. Cas and ourselves could have taken a considered view as to his future but as it was it was all down to p&r and planning didn't enter into it.

P&R also affected several of the Wakey players last season. For example had Korkidas and Solomona been assured of SL footy in 2007 at Wakey they may well have stayed and the club could have offered them better deals if it wanted to based on the knowledge they had an SL income in 2007.

The Aussies think p&r is madness and when you see the implications you can see why.

Dave
cpwigan
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by cpwigan »

I think Scottish football is a pretty good example of why the non threat of promotion / relegation has little or no impact. The Scottish Premier League does have relegation I hear you say. Yes it does BUT the reality is most of the clubs are secure and yet the number of foreigners playing for these clubs has increased. Indeed, it has allowed other clubs like Hearts to challenge the Old Firm. I have used that example because Scottish football suffers from a similar scenario to ours, quality scottish youngsters are few and far between, gauranteed European professionals are plentiful. Exactly our situation. The notion there are lots of youngsters capable of playing SL is a fallacy.
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lucky 13
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by lucky 13 »

on the quality side yes i agree not enough young player's but with time and more places in teams available this would improve you can say teams take a quick fix with imports but they also go down this track to avoid relegation not just to win things,also if every team had to have a set amount the game may take a step back to take a leap forward on international side of things
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DaveO
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by DaveO »

cpwigan posted:
I think Scottish football is a pretty good example of why the non threat of promotion / relegation has little or no impact. The Scottish Premier League does have relegation I hear you say. Yes it does BUT the reality is most of the clubs are secure and yet the number of foreigners playing for these clubs has increased. Indeed, it has allowed other clubs like Hearts to challenge the Old Firm. I have used that example because Scottish football suffers from a similar scenario to ours, quality scottish youngsters are few and far between, gauranteed European professionals are plentiful. Exactly our situation. The notion there are lots of youngsters capable of playing SL is a fallacy.
Sometimes you have to take a few steps back to move forward. The fact the quality of British youngsters isn't up to that of overseas players in their mid to late twenties/early thirties is obviously going to be true.

But we never will have enough quality British players if more of them are not given a chance. If rules could be put in place that forced teams to play more British players despite them being a step down in standard thus lowering the quality of the competition then so be it.

However I am not convinced the quality of the majority of overseas imports is that great. The advantage they have is physical maturity and have cost nothing for clubs to develop. The clubs have not had to pay several years wages with these players in their academies (wages which count against the cap) and so I think simple economics plays as big a part in clubs fixation with these players as any quality concerns.

As to the analogy of the Scottish league I don't see how this applies. The fact some clubs never suffer relegation threats is the same as in SL. They are not (in SL) the clubs that go overboard on Kolpak's.

The similarity between RL and Scottish soccer as far as I can see is that both sports have no enforceable overseas quota and both are thus just as likely to buy the ready made players from overseas for reasons discussed.

The question is would this practice change without P&R? I think it would. Some clubs would carry on regardless but others and I think Wigan would be one would take a more enlightened approach and would no longer panic buy players as they did when facing relegation and would use the "opportunity" of an unsuccessful season to blood a few more academy players.

Dave
cpwigan
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by cpwigan »

We may pat ourselves on the back and rejoice in the fact that Wigan produces more professional players than any other area in SL BUT we do so largely by default I.E The other regions are so bad that we will always produce a greater quantity. No, we (Wigan) do not compare with Australia.

The bottom line is this. We produce very few youngsters and those we do produce are not good enough. The AIS and Australian Schoolboys are sweeping all before them. The schoolboys made a team containing Tommy Lee (Hulls brightest star), Goulding and Gleeson (Our 2 hopes) Moore from Saints and many more with SL experience look very ordinary. Our youngsters are simply not good enough and that is down to our system.

If no promotion/relegation and most importantly no overseas players is a panacea then please explain how the gulf between GB and aUstralia was at its greatest and the standard of RL in this country was at its lowest when an international ban on transfers was in place. THE EXACT OPPOSITE TO WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING HAPPENED.
jinkin jimmy
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by jinkin jimmy »

The salary cap in its present guise is responsible for stifling player development. It should revert to its previous format, i.e. limiting clubs' expenditure to 50% of turnover but with a caveat that only a certain percentage can be spent on overseas players.

Wigan could comfortably spend double the current cap and still be below 50% of turnover. Allowing the richer clubs to spend more will definitely enhance palyer development.

The game is being held back and standards are slipping because the leading clubs are being deliberately restricted to the level of the least ambitious/successful. :angry:
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wigan no1 fan
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Re: will it make a differe...

Post by wigan no1 fan »

Jimmy is onto something far better. Imagine is what you spent on junior development within your service area impacted upon your salary cap :wink:
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