Competitive Scrum?

[CherryandWhiteandProud]

I was thinking today, what is the point of wasting time when we know which end the ball is coming out of? I think bringing back the competitive scrum would be a good idea, adding an extra skill to the forward game . Currently scruming has no point. Some may say it opens up the field for the backs, but it only lasts for 1 play till it is back to normal again. The Hooker's main job has also been made redundant. If we want to do away with a competitive scrum we should do away with it alltogther, replacing it with a quick tap to speed up play. My call to the RL bosses is ethier a) Bring back the competitive scrum or b) do away with it altogether.

[DaveO]

CherryandWhitea ndProud posted:
I was thinking today, what is the point of wasting time when we know which end the ball is coming out of? I think bringing back the competitive scrum would be a good idea, adding an extra skill to the forward game .

Our scrums are not officially uncompetitive. It is not illegal to push in RL scrums. it is just that they have evolved to be as they are with the ball going into the second row.

There is even debate in the Union game about getting rid of the competitive scrum as it is dangerous. The fact the players in RU have gone professional means they are getting more powerful and so there is more scope for serious injury. I can't see our administrators going in the opposite direction.

Currently scruming has no point. Some may say it opens up the field for the backs, but it only lasts for 1 play till it is back to normal again.

Better than nothing and if a scrum is awarded in the 20m zone sides often score directly from it whereas they would not if facing a set defence form a PTB.

The Hooker's main job has also been made redundant. If we want to do away with a competitive scrum we should do away with it alltogther, replacing it with a quick tap to speed up play. My call to the RL bosses is ethier a) Bring back the competitive scrum or b) do away with it altogether.

I would leave it as it is. If the scrum is made competitive the ref must police it more than he does and award penalties for not putting the ball in straight etc. Leave that to union. We don't want our game to be held up with penalties.

As to doing away with it then see above. It is different and can lead to a different outcome to a play from a PTB.

Dave

[the_cow]

I dont think its the actual 'competitive' element of the scrum they're talking about removing in rugby union, but reducing the impact element at the 'engage'.

I play rugby union- front row- and i enjoy the competitive element of the scrum- im quite light for a prop at 15 stones and have scrummaged against some big guys conceeding 2-3 stones sometimes. I've never had a problem where ive felt my neck is going to give way- its mostly about how good the ref is at controlling the scrum. Though occasionally i've found myself literally lifted off the floor with the sheer power involved.

I think it would be a backwards step to bring back the aggressive 'engage' element of the game but it would be beneficial to increase the competitive element- this could simply be done by ensuring the ball is placed into the centre of the scrum and the hooker moves the ball backwards- instead of simply rolling the ball through the legs of the prop/gap between hooker and prop. This would allow the opposing team a chance to make an effort to gain possession rather than possesion being nailed on before the ball even leaves the scrum halves hands.

Though i think the art of scrummaging is lost now in rugby league and if it was to be introduced rugby union coaches would need to be hired for a season.

[lucky 13]

I agree Dave leave it as it is at least it ties the forwards up giving an attacking chance for the backs ,maybe props and second row should stay binded until first pass or tackle to give players chance to put a move on from the scrum ?

[CherryandWhiteandProud]

I agree with cow as we could hace a contolled, non-agressive engage, maybe light pushing, but i would like to see the ball go down the centre and see the hookers do their thing.

[DaveO]

CherryandWhitea ndProud posted:
I agree with cow as we could hace a contolled, non-agressive engage, maybe light pushing, but i would like to see the ball go down the centre and see the hookers do their thing.

As I said if you do that you must give a penalty if it does not get put in straight or if the hooker strikes too soon and so on. The ref will spend all his time watching that rather than checking for offside etc. The penalty count will inevitably rise which I don't think is worth the small gain you will get from contested scrums the only benefit of which is that on occasion one goes against the feed.

I don't follow Union games at senior level but how many scrums are won against the feed? I bet it isn't that many and if I am correct them the contested scrum is just a cosmetic exercise.

I also think the debate in Union is not about the engage aspect. They have recognised sometimes packs are mismatched to the degree the scrum can collapse nearly every time. Collapsing of scrums is where the danger is and where most serious injuries occur and being involved at the bottom of one of those is mot nice.

Read this:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 60,00.html

Most RU fans huff and puff about the ocntested scrum being part of the game when they see things like that and come out with statements like "I played in the front row for 20 years and it never did me any harm" but that was not as a full time professional in the modern game facing professiuonal opposition forwards. The same applies in RL.

Dave

[lucky 13]

Con care again Dave totally if you contest the scrum we will have another rule which will be very hard to ref and very contentious with the fans .

Already got enough of that without adding another rule that depending on what the ref sees in a split second can go for or against just as easily it would just add more frustration.

Video refs can look at a try for two three minutes and still get it wrong ,how many scrum decisions would refs get wrong ?

[the_cow]

collapsing of scrums very rarely occurs after the engage- its the impact of the engage and a lack suitable binding that results in a collapse. once the scrum is engaged and set its very rare anything goes wrong.

if two packs are of a similar level in terms of age, then there is no issue- it simply comes down to technique and practice. Its only when you have inexperience or an imbalance, eg. under18's playing a first team, when problems are likely to occur.

It is somewhat rare at the top of the ru game that a scrum is won against the feed, but it is more common that a penalty occurs due to the opposing team turning the scrum or forcing errors due to pressure being exerted on the scrum half. in lower ranks of the game it is much more common for possession to be conceeded at the scrum.

i can see the point regarding refs having trouble managing the scrum but then isnt this a reflection upon the skill, or lack of skill, that the referee exhibit. i think its part and parcel of nearly any sport that referees make mistakes and call decisions wrong, whether this be rl, ru or footy. it just has to be accepted that decisions balance themselves out over a season.

the major issue with injuries from scrums is because any injury usually involves a neck or back, which obviously has an impact upon the players future. i personally think an issue that needs to be considered in rl is tackling without using hands/arms. the damage the charging tackle has the possibility to do is immense both to the tackler and the ball carrier. for instance, the kidwell charge on mason. this type of challenge is similar to american football, the difference being the americans are covered in protection.

[lucky 13]

Not bothered about the RU part of the topic they just copy us anyway just 100 years behind ,scrum part of our game just think its another thing we don't need in RL

[Bear]

CherryandWhitea ndProud posted:
I agree with cow as we could hace a contolled, non-agressive engage, maybe light pushing, but i would like to see the ball go down the centre and see the hookers do their thing.

Im with the hooking and pushing... There will be more skill involved in the pack... Pushing the opposition off the ball

Im only saying this because we have a very good pack