What is happening to the Labour Party?

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BriH
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What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by BriH »

I have supported Labour all my life and am a member of Labour International.
It breaks my heart to see what looks like the breakup of this once great Party.
At a time when it is essential for democracy, that there is a strong opposition - always essential which ever Party is in Govt. - the Labour Party is tearing itself apart.
In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.
And, it went down ever since.
It's no surprise that traditional Labour Party supporters ignored Labour's pro-EU stance and voted for Brexit.
medlocke
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by medlocke »

It all started when John Smith died
josie andrews
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by josie andrews »

medlocke wrote:It all started when John Smith died
And Hugh Gaitskill!
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
that takes a lot of courage. #18thMan
jobo
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by jobo »

medlocke wrote:It all started when John Smith died
You're not wrong there.
southernpie
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by southernpie »

medlocke wrote:It all started when John Smith died
Exactly what I think, things have gone downhill ever since.
This St Helens Defence is like a lollipopman at Brands Hatch -Ray French BBC TV Challenge Cup 1982



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DaveO
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by DaveO »

BriH wrote: In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.
Think your mate was spot on there. I remember the atmosphere in 1997 after years of Thatcher & Major. He was being cheered into No 10.

Some good things were done. I think people forget The NHS was on it's knees with people on trolleys in corridors back in 1997. That got sorted, not always in the right way with PFI funding and so on but it certainly improved. It is now going backwards again.

Our schools were literally crumbling (which people also forget) and so I saw first hand as my son went through education the investment that went into improving our schools. This is also now going backwards again to a pre 1900 system (one the Tories back then scrapped in favour of LEA control...).

The problem Labour have had politically since Brown took over was they were overtaken by events (crash 2008) and were outmaneuvered by being beaten at Blair's own game of spin.

It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it back left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.
josie andrews
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by josie andrews »

DaveO wrote:
BriH wrote: In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.
Think your mate was spot on there. I remember the atmosphere in 1997 after years of Thatcher & Major. He was being cheered into No 10.

Some good things were done. I think people forget The NHS was on it's knees with people on trolleys in corridors back in 1997. That got sorted, not always in the right way with PFI funding and so on but it certainly improved. It is now going backwards again.

Our schools were literally crumbling (which people also forget) and so I saw first hand as my son went through education the investment that went into improving our schools. This is also now going backwards again to a pre 1900 system (one the Tories back then scrapped in favour of LEA control...).

The problem Labour have had politically since Brown took over was they were overtaken by events (crash 2008) and were outmaneuvered by being beaten at Blair's own game of spin.

It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it back left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.
That is exactly how I picture him Michael Foot MK!!
Anyone can support a team when it is winning, that takes no courage.
But to stand behind a team, to defend a team when it is down and really needs you,
that takes a lot of courage. #18thMan
southernpie
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by southernpie »

DaveO wrote:
It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it back left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.
Very good summary DaveO just about sums up my feelings about the current situation. I would also add Thatchers Yuppy reign filtered down and installed an attitude where the average working man wanted more out of life, home ownership, two car families etc. and the Labour party didn't reflect this and went too far left, hence unelectable Michael Foot, this looked like it was going to be rectified by Smith but that unfortunately didn't work out and along came Blair going too far right leading to the situation you have described so eloquently
This St Helens Defence is like a lollipopman at Brands Hatch -Ray French BBC TV Challenge Cup 1982



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nellywelly
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by nellywelly »

DaveO wrote:
BriH wrote: In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.
Think your mate was spot on there. I remember the atmosphere in 1997 after years of Thatcher & Major. He was being cheered into No 10.

Some good things were done. I think people forget The NHS was on it's knees with people on trolleys in corridors back in 1997. That got sorted, not always in the right way with PFI funding and so on but it certainly improved. It is now going backwards again.

Our schools were literally crumbling (which people also forget) and so I saw first hand as my son went through education the investment that went into improving our schools. This is also now going backwards again to a pre 1900 system (one the Tories back then scrapped in favour of LEA control...).

The problem Labour have had politically since Brown took over was they were overtaken by events (crash 2008) and were outmaneuvered by being beaten at Blair's own game of spin.

It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it lback left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.
DaveO wrote:
BriH wrote: In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.
Think your mate was spot on there. I remember the atmosphere in 1997 after years of Thatcher & Major. He was being cheered into No 10.

Some good things were done. I think people forget The NHS was on it's knees with people on trolleys in corridors back in 1997. That got sorted, not always in the right way with PFI funding and so on but it certainly improved. It is now going backwards again.

Our schools were literally crumbling (which people also forget) and so I saw first hand as my son went through education the investment that went into improving our schools. This is also now going backwards again to a pre 1900 system (one the Tories back then scrapped in favour of LEA control...).

The problem Labour have had politically since Brown took over was they were overtaken by events (crash 2008) and were outmaneuvered by being beaten at Blair's own game of spin.

It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it back left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.

I remember when Michael Foot was leader it was a disaster and Corbyn reminds me so much of them times. Just like Foot , Corbyn is supported by members and unions but lacks the leadership qualities to win any election against the conservatives so labour will go into years of being unelectable .Do we want this to happen, the conservatives certainly do, I have after years of being an idealist realise to win elections you have to compromise on what you want from a labour government and expect a lot less. You do not have to have a Blair as leader but a more moderate middle of road leader with a good and strong personality is needed and the labour support to expect much less of its party. There is no utopia around the corner,all we can hope for is a fairer society where the lower and poorer in society get a better deal
DaveO
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Re: What is happening to the Labour Party?

Post by DaveO »

nellywelly wrote: I remember when Michael Foot was leader it was a disaster and Corbyn reminds me so much of them times. Just like Foot , Corbyn is supported by members and unions but lacks the leadership qualities to win any election against the conservatives so labour will go into years of being unelectable .Do we want this to happen, the conservatives certainly do, I have after years of being an idealist realise to win elections you have to compromise on what you want from a labour government and expect a lot less. You do not have to have a Blair as leader but a more moderate middle of road leader with a good and strong personality is needed and the labour support to expect much less of its party. There is no utopia around the corner,all we can hope for is a fairer society where the lower and poorer in society get a better deal
I don't think you have to have a more middle of the road leader but a leader who is effective at explaining your policies with an organisation who are effective at combating the spin.

Unfortunately Corbyn isn't that leader and his party organization seems amateurish which gives the right wing press plenty of ammo.

On the other side you have the Labour MP's who see him as unelectable but instead of looking for a more suitable candidate who will offer the same policies (so are different from the Tory policies) they look to ape the Tories.

Corbyn himself needs to realise if he wants to Labour not to return to New Labour (or split) he needs to stand aside for a younger more media savvy leader and one with an effective organisation to boot. That in many ways is a sad thing to say but most of the electorate today have neither the time nor the inclination to wade through a Corbyn speech so Labour needs a leader who can win at the sound-bite politics we have today.

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