Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

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morley pie eater
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:52 pm

But isn't there a contradiction in saying "Yes, Corbyn's right that poverty and inequality are the real issues" but then saying that he must engage more with Brexit?

His problem is that he and Labour can do no more than they have done to influence what happens about Brexit. They are the opposition. The overwhelming likelihood is that, by the time they get into government, Brexit will be settled.

Given the above, anything he says about Brexit will achieve precisely nothing except that whatever he says will lose him votes from one side or the other.

Not only that, but as soon as he offers an opinion on Brexit, he's playing into the current mood that it's the only thing that matters, and actually contributing to the Tories' diversionary tactics.

Personally I think he's spot on. I've come to fatalistically accept that what happens about Brexit will happen. When the dust starts to settle, we may wake up and realise that the railways are in a mess, the roads need repair, nearly all infrastructure investment is centred on London, employers are screwing their workers, and a hundred and one other issues have passed unnoticed.

DaveO
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by DaveO » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:31 pm

He must engage more because it's crunch time for Brexit. I think he's either going to get his general election or another vote. If either occurs he and the Labour party have to have a stance that is no longer on the fence. I am sure he'd like it to pass him by and as Mike said it is as almost as if he doesn't care whether we are in or out, he'd rather deal with other stuff. Unfortunately for him there are millions of people who are very interested on where we end up, both leavers and remainers and it's going to consume the post Brexit government for years if we do actually leave even if it is his version of leaving.

I don't expect him to even try to force a vote even if May loses the vote on her deal. I read on the Guardian web site when asked after his speech would he call a vote of no confidence in the govt the reply was "only when we can win one". The ERG won't vote against the government in a confidence vote even if May's deal is voted down. So as far as I can see the only way he will get a chance for one is because May's deal gets through and the DUP withdraw their support or it fails and a hard Brexit is on offer and he hopes enough Tories will vote against their own government but either way he's not got much longer if the game moves on to either a GE or another vote before he must say what he wants to do.

If it's GE and there is no offer of another vote in the Labour manifesto to vote on any deal they may get he can forget winning.

In the last GE he did well to steer it onto issues that were non-Brexit. May wanted it to be all about Brexit but if there is another it really WILL all be about Brexit.

Even if he said right, our policy is leave (which would not satisfy remainers) but on our terms but we will ask the country to confirm this once our deal is done (which would) I think he'd walk it especially if the alternative was a hard brexit on offer from the Tories. He could try and put the Brexit issue to bed as simply as that and say at the same time regardless of which way that vote goes dealing with inequality etc is our plan for the country but the only way he will win is if says to the leavers the policy is leave and to the remainers but only after a confirmation vote. Until this is all sorted he's going to have little time for anything else.

morley pie eater
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:51 pm

Dave, I largely agree with you.

I think Corbyn said he'd call for a vote of no confidence when they had best chance of winning, rather than when they could win.

To be honest, I think a GE now would be a disaster for Labour, and I'm sure they know that. Talk of a vote of no confidence and GE is just posturing. Labour know the ERG and DUP will support May.

However, a GE in 2022 woulf be a different matter, with Brexit settled one way or the other, and people's focus switched back to "it's the economy, stupid".

But a vote of no confidence, defeated, could be the last step before Labour backing a referendum. Importantly this would not be on the basis of a chance to overturn the original vote (like Blair, Adonis et al) but, because of Corbyn's pro-Brexit views, would be seen as letting the people have their say when parliament is grid-locked - or at least it could be presented as that.

A lot of wishful thinking on my part, but I started off critical of JC and have come round to thinking it's more about seeing the longer term strategy rather than coming straight out with your real plan: "softly, softly, catchee monkey"?

Why would remainers like McDonnell and Starmer sit back and let him balls the whole thing up if they weren't in agreement with the ultimate objectives?

Wandering Warrior
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wandering Warrior » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:35 pm

Are you certain McDonnell is a remainer? I'm led to believe it's the opposite?
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Wintergreen
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wintergreen » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:01 pm

Poverty? By what criteria?

Compared to 100 years ago there is no poverty in the UK. No-one dying through lack of food, which is not something that you could say back then.

That was real poverty.

Real Poverty in the UK today is non existant.


Hardship and inequality? Absolutely.

That said, is inequality a bad thing? If it is a by product of an ecnonomic system that helps people move to an absolute higher definition of "poverty" is it bad?

e.g. (and I will make up/exaggerate the facts to prove a point )

1900s bottom 10% of households really are wondering where the next meal will come from. Total "luxuries" virtually zero.

2017 bottom 10% of households in absolutely zero danger of starving to death, probably have mobile phones, TV, washing machines and free health benefits.


Does it really matter if the top 5% are making money and increasing the wealth divide as long as everyone benefits in absolute terms?

Back on topic, Corbyn sees the EU as too "pro business" . A little worrying for the UK if he ever gets in power.

shaunedwardsfanclub
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by shaunedwardsfanclub » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:47 am

Corbyn, McDonnell and McClusky all support Brexit.
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Caboosegg
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Caboosegg » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:36 am

Wow wintergreen just wow

To say poverty doesnt exist like it did 100 years ago is indeed true but what a load of rubbish.

Poverty still exists in the UK just because we live in a different era doesnt mean it doesnt exist

You tell those working mums who have just won against the DUP that poverty doesnt exist, you know the ones whos entire case was based on how the benifits system was putting them in massive debt!
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moto748
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by moto748 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:01 pm

We seem to have a long way from promised "sunny uplands" to "at least people aren't starving"! :lol:

morley pie eater
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:08 pm

Sorry, I was clearly wrong on McDonnell.

Let me make the point slightly differently: the majority of the shafow cabinet supported remain, and would not so ready go along with Corbyn without hope of a favourable outcome.

I'm suggesting a more valid interpretation of Labour's approach is by looking at the strategy and seeing beyond the current step.

In the likely event that May's deal is defeated next week, and that she then wins any no confidence vote, Labour should then back calls for a second referendum. At that stage, Corbyn's (and McDonnell's) support for Brexit will be in Labour's favour by making that support "neutral" ("let the people decide because MPs can't") rather than the partizan calls from the likes of Blair, which are seen as just a manoeuvre to overturn the original vote.

morley pie eater
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:09 pm

moto748 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:01 pm
We seem to have a long way from promised "sunny uplands" to "at least people aren't starving"! :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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