Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

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jobo
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by jobo » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:16 am

medlocke wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:18 pm
BREXIT SHOCK: Legal expert says UK ‘has ALREADY LEFT EU’ because Brexit delay is ILLEGAL :shock:
That Gove bloke thinks people are sick of these so called experts. I mean, when have they ever been proved right?

SJ
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by SJ » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:06 am

jobo wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:16 am
medlocke wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:18 pm
BREXIT SHOCK: Legal expert says UK ‘has ALREADY LEFT EU’ because Brexit delay is ILLEGAL :shock:
That Gove bloke thinks people are sick of these so called experts. I mean, when have they ever been proved right?
Well let's just await the outcome and see shall we. Re Mikes comment. He openly nailed is colour to the mast at the same time openly stating his aim to deliberately upset leavers surely not consistent with the exchanges of opposing dialogue. Re inventing conspiracy theories the force of my aguements throughout this sad saga has been that the outcome will only be determined after we leave My post concerning the topic above put the whole debate to bed. Why? Because it the debate was all hypothetical ,speculative etc. Nobody not even Dave O can state a true statement about a future event Ceteris Paribus The speculation is fulfilled or it isn't Simple logic. ! It doesn't become true
Some will ,no doubt others won't

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Mike
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Mike » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:56 pm

SJ wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:06 am
Re Mikes comment. He openly nailed is colour to the mast at the same time openly stating his aim to deliberately upset leavers surely not consistent with the exchanges of opposing dialogue.
I cite the following evidence. Your posts.
SJ wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:06 am
Re inventing conspiracy theories the force of my aguements throughout this sad saga has been that the outcome will only be determined after we leave
BTW How do you make any decisions at all if you declare all reasoning about the future as pointless. Do you jump off the cliff because the outcome is not 100% certain and only evaluate whether that was a good or bad move after you hit the ground? Or do you form a reasonable judgement on the likelihood of the outcome and use that to make a decision that could prevent serious disadvantage?

Sounds like you advocate jumping and finding out after if it was a good idea.

SJ
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by SJ » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:09 pm

Your argument is based on the fallacy of ad hominem. Look it up on googleI It's obvious to me you don't understand the concept. I've just expressed the idiom that pervades my argument whether your argument is reasonable is subjective not objective oie being speculative it's an opinion just as my argument recognises the above and is my opinion. Those opinions can only be realised following us leaving you think that will result in a"cliff edge 🤓I don't. To argue about speculative opinions seems vulgar to me. You may be proved right but so might I over time.I have said all this in previous posts as have others look them up if you can be bothered

DaveO
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by DaveO » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:06 pm

SJ wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:06 am
My post concerning the topic above put the whole debate to bed. Why? Because it the debate was all hypothetical ,speculative etc. Nobody not even Dave O can state a true statement about a future event Ceteris Paribus The speculation is fulfilled or it isn't Simple logic. ! It doesn't become true
Some will ,no doubt others won't
No your post didn't put the debate to bed because you are relying on a fallacy. That of "an appeal to ignorance" (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"). What this fallacy says is that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true.

So when say "not even Dave O can state a true statement about a future event, all things being equal" you are arguing that what the EU gives us now and obliges us to do now can't be predicted or guaranteed in future and this must be the case because I have no way of proving otherwise.

This is not true. The reason it is not true is because the EU is governed by its treaties and they can't change except by a unanimous decision of all members. So, for example, I can state with certainty that there will never be an EU army if the UK remains a member of the EU unless the UK agrees. EU defence policy is also something that requires unanimity and for it not to, there would have to be treaty change which requires unanimity.

So anyone arguing it's possible there will one day be a UK army because "anything is possible" or "we can't predict the future" is engaging in a false dichotomy because they have not investigated what the evidence is to the contrary.

You do this all the time. You claim no one knows what the EU will do despite the fact it can't change its treaties without our consent. You argue no one knows what what our economic prospects are because we can't predict the future and so this is speculation. No it isn't. It's a hypothesis based on evidence not speculation. There is a difference you don't seem to get.

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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by SJ » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:57 pm

Dave your logic is ill founded
The fallacies don't apply to my argument I don't intend to embarrass you by giving you a lesson in simple semantic rationality and logic. Just one example you say reason x depends on hypothesis Y. Look up hypothesis in Google Simply put your reasons x depend on Y Y being hypothetical qua speculative qua conjecture etc

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Mike
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Mike » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:11 pm

SJ wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:57 pm
Dave your logic is ill founded
The fallacies don't apply to my argument I don't intend to embarrass you by giving you a lesson in simple semantic rationality and logic. Just one example you say reason x depends on hypothesis Y. Look up hypothesis in Google Simply put your reasons x depend on Y Y being hypothetical qua speculative
AKA - SJ can't explain why he thinks what he thinks. If his reasons are simple, semantically rational and logical, surely it would be easy for him?

Please explain how you can allow a hypothesis about the consequences of jumping off a cliff to affect your decision whether to take that leap, whilst at the same time stating that the future cannot be reasoned about because its just speculation? Assume I'm an idiot, so simple language please - come down to my level.

By the way, you're correct I don't understand how ad hominem applies to asking you to justify your position. What myself and Dave appear to be doing is to get you to explain why you think what you think, and Dave is explaining exactly why he thinks what he thinks to you. You then dismiss that as attacking your character, avoiding debate, etc, but its the exact opposite. Do you feel set upon because others are explaining their opposing views and you can't or won't explain yours?
:P

SJ
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by SJ » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:27 pm

I don't need to assume your and Daves ignorance I know you are both Ignorant of Logic and Semantics. I've spelled out on numerous occasions my stance re the above topic. You are both ignorant it's axiomatic. This is my last post. I this matter. I prefer to have dialogue with more sophisticated posters(but they already left the forum. Bye bye❤️😜😳
Me

Wandering Warrior
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wandering Warrior » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:00 pm

Seriously SJ, I'd concentrate on getting your basic English correct before scanning dictionary.com for fancy words in an attempt to make yourself look intelligent! :lol:
When John Byrom plays on snow, he doesn't leave any footprints - Jimmy Armfield

DaveO
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Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by DaveO » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:54 am

SJ wrote:Dave your logic is ill founded
The fallacies don't apply to my argument I don't intend to embarrass you by giving you a lesson in simple semantic rationality and logic. Just one example you say reason x depends on hypothesis Y. Look up hypothesis in Google Simply put your reasons x depend on Y Y being hypothetical qua speculative qua conjecture etc
Your argument is demonstrably fallacious.

You claim we don’t know what the future in the EU holds and are trying to use this as a reason to suggest remaining is not something we should do. I explained why this is not true in that the EU is governed by its treaties which tell us exactly what we can expect.

I can say as I did in my example that we won’t have an EU army because of these treaties which we, the UK, would have to agree to change for this to change.

What you are arguing is just because that is the situation today it might not be true tomorrow based on absolutely zero evidence to the contrary . Zero. None. That is a classic fail of logic. It is, if you like fancy phrases, the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam.





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