Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Got anything else on your mind that isn't about the Warriors? If you do, this is the place to post.
moto748
Posts: 2220
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:30 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by moto748 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:23 am

Well said, morley.

morley pie eater
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:26 am

Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:13 pm
morley pie eater wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:40 pm
SJ wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:57 pm
Trading mechanics. Your right. They all worked at British Leyland and produced Rubbish
Ted your not on my Christmas Card list. The one I was going to compile. Don't you realise leaving theEU will save the lazy trade Unionist " workers their jobs. If it wasn't for the London City financial Indusry the Economy would be in trouble.
The carrion call every body out would echo around the railways I want to close the carriage doors. Etc
Let the Poles et al come. They work for less money and do a better days work than our lazy barstewards

It's still snowing in Tibet.
The old trope of the lazy British worker and Trades Unions being responsible for our poor economic performance in the 60s and 70s.

I was there SJ, not sure if you were, or if you've actually thought about it in any depth. If you're really interested in understanding, rather than just spewing out unthinking, tired old myths, I'll try a brief resumé:

There's very seldom a single cause for economic decline. Sure, unions played a part (dockers, for example), but the truth is that major parts of British industry collapsed more rapidly than car making and were not heavily unionised. How come?

I joined the dominant textile industry in West Yorkshire (Heavy Woollen District) in 1967. When mills closed, they blamed "foreign competition" - in those days from countries lije Romania. Studying City & Guilds on day release, I was told that mule spinning was a great advance of the industrial revolution, but was obsolete by WW2. The whole class laughed! We all worked in mills that still used mules - usually with a cast iron plate with maker's name and year: 1876 or similar.

Hindsight tells us that the problem was chronic underinvestment (ie a failure of capitalism). The same was true for the motor vehicle industry. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki made motorbikes that didn't leak oil because the engines were machined to tolerances unheard of here. Ditto Japanese and German car manufacturers. They'd invested in modern equipment and modern methods and paid their workers more than ours got.

British workers are no more lazy than any others - ask Nissan, Toyota, Siemens, BMW etc etc, who have all built factories here (many of them invited by a certain Mrs M H Thatcher iirc). And they work with trades unions rather than scapegoating them for their own inadequacies.

On the other hand, it's easier to just keep churning out your lazy outdated Tory propaganda, blame the workers.
You're nearly right.

Don't blame the workers. They just do as they are told.

But DO blame the Trade Unions.

Why is under-investment a failure of capitalism? It isn't. Capitalism, like water, will always find it's own level.

What you mean by your statement is "capitalism doesn't look after National interests" Which of course is correct, it doesn't.

The reason German and Japanese infrastructure was superior to your "Mule" is that they started from scratch. Nothing to do with ideology, pure capitalism.
Thanks for the qualified compliment, Wintergreen!

I think you're taking a "big picture" approach ("Capitalism will always find it's own level") and explaining the facts from what you've pre-decided to be true.

I'm trying to look at my experiences as a young lad, and understand the causes through what I saw first-hand and what I've read over 40 to 50 years since then.

The mills with the mules were owned by descendants of the founders. They lived in big houses, had Rovers, Daimlers, Jaguars etc, were magistrates, local "big-wigs". (I'm not generalising - I could give ypu their names.)

They didn't invest, they spent - fiddled while Rome was burning. Capitalism found it's level when, over a 10 year period, hundreds of mills closed. The 1 million dole queue ("Labour isn't working") became 3 million, and I was one of them.

Capitalism is good overall, but it does have an unacceptable face. It needs regulation.

You say blame the unions. In the mills I worked in, there weren't any. The textile industry suffered as much as, if not more than, the car industry and other unionised industries.

The unions aren't the answer, but neither are/were they the problem. That's my point.

Wintergreen
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 2:13 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wintergreen » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:01 am

morley pie eater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:26 am
Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:13 pm
morley pie eater wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:40 pm


The old trope of the lazy British worker and Trades Unions being responsible for our poor economic performance in the 60s and 70s.

I was there SJ, not sure if you were, or if you've actually thought about it in any depth. If you're really interested in understanding, rather than just spewing out unthinking, tired old myths, I'll try a brief resumé:

There's very seldom a single cause for economic decline. Sure, unions played a part (dockers, for example), but the truth is that major parts of British industry collapsed more rapidly than car making and were not heavily unionised. How come?

I joined the dominant textile industry in West Yorkshire (Heavy Woollen District) in 1967. When mills closed, they blamed "foreign competition" - in those days from countries lije Romania. Studying City & Guilds on day release, I was told that mule spinning was a great advance of the industrial revolution, but was obsolete by WW2. The whole class laughed! We all worked in mills that still used mules - usually with a cast iron plate with maker's name and year: 1876 or similar.

Hindsight tells us that the problem was chronic underinvestment (ie a failure of capitalism). The same was true for the motor vehicle industry. Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki made motorbikes that didn't leak oil because the engines were machined to tolerances unheard of here. Ditto Japanese and German car manufacturers. They'd invested in modern equipment and modern methods and paid their workers more than ours got.

British workers are no more lazy than any others - ask Nissan, Toyota, Siemens, BMW etc etc, who have all built factories here (many of them invited by a certain Mrs M H Thatcher iirc). And they work with trades unions rather than scapegoating them for their own inadequacies.

On the other hand, it's easier to just keep churning out your lazy outdated Tory propaganda, blame the workers.
You're nearly right.

Don't blame the workers. They just do as they are told.

But DO blame the Trade Unions.

Why is under-investment a failure of capitalism? It isn't. Capitalism, like water, will always find it's own level.

What you mean by your statement is "capitalism doesn't look after National interests" Which of course is correct, it doesn't.

The reason German and Japanese infrastructure was superior to your "Mule" is that they started from scratch. Nothing to do with ideology, pure capitalism.
Thanks for the qualified compliment, Wintergreen!

I think you're taking a "big picture" approach ("Capitalism will always find it's own level") and explaining the facts from what you've pre-decided to be true.

I'm trying to look at my experiences as a young lad, and understand the causes through what I saw first-hand and what I've read over 40 to 50 years since then.

The mills with the mules were owned by descendants of the founders. They lived in big houses, had Rovers, Daimlers, Jaguars etc, were magistrates, local "big-wigs". (I'm not generalising - I could give ypu their names.)

They didn't invest, they spent - fiddled while Rome was burning. Capitalism found it's level when, over a 10 year period, hundreds of mills closed. The 1 million dole queue ("Labour isn't working") became 3 million, and I was one of them.

Capitalism is good overall, but it does have an unacceptable face. It needs regulation.

You say blame the unions. In the mills I worked in, there weren't any. The textile industry suffered as much as, if not more than, the car industry and other unionised industries.

The unions aren't the answer, but neither are/were they the problem. That's my point.
I'm in agreement with most of what you say.

I'm a Tory, but would place myself on the left of the party, somewhere around the Ken Clarke level.

Ultimately Capitalism does indeed require regulation. It does tend to a Monopoly in most instances (or at least an Oligopoly). Whilst the journey does give benefits, the destination doesn't. Imo of course.

Unions were absolutely vital 150 years ago. They are no longer relevant, and do way more harm than good.

You say the mill owners didn't invest, rather they spent. That's ultimately their choice, but in doing so they are running their assets (their businesses) down.

DaveO
Posts: 14314
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:32 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by DaveO » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:38 pm

SJ wrote:Decided to give up. As advised. The Economy will sort itself out. End of WW2 skint. 2008 collapse. Not picked u by Economists. Mike I made it explicit in my posts. Over a 3 year period why Ivoted leave and neither youWG will change my mind about why. I just answered the Ref. No reason required but I'll give you one ;because it was snowing in Tibet!ImageImage
The economy will sort itself out? It’s not sorted itself out since 2008 with wages in real terms still less than then.

The pound devaluing again will just make this worse not better.

Many communities haven’t recovered from the loss of heavy industries that occurred in the 80’s.

But really the most ludicrous thing about your position is that you voted to leave because of democracy.

I seriously do not know what you expect to gain, democratically, by leaving the the EU.

I am pretty certain you are under the misapprehension that it it is an anti democratic body when it isn’t and are happy to ignore the fact successive democratically elected UK governments have agreed with every treaty change since we joined in 1973.

But let’s assume for a minute the EU is as evil as you make out. What exactly do you expect to happen when we leave to improve democracy?

We are still going to have to comply with international standards for trade and the worlds largest standards settings body is the EU.

To give you an example I work for a US company of over 30k employees and every last one of them based in Europe or the USA must comply with the EU GDPR standards and gets training on them. Just as we have to comply with similar legislation in countries like Japan and Canada.

The UK will be forced to comply to such measures in or out of the EU. Parliament can whistle in the wind if it thinks it can’t.

Politically it’s blindly obvious other countries expect more in return for trade deals than they have now. Such as India with easier visa access for their national. US access to the NHS is a political decision unlikely to be able to be resisted. And son so on.

The bottom line is the UK must exist in a world dominated by large powers which are the USA, China and EU. The Brexiter notion we will take back control is as naive as it is farcical.

One of my reasons for voting remain was political as well. That I believe we are better served politically within the EU that trying to exist outside it.


Wiganer Ted
Posts: 2397
Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wiganer Ted » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:47 pm

One of the real laughable amounts of rubbish put out by the quitters is that the EU is not democratic but run by unelected officials. Whilst they are saying this in the HoC they are only 100 ft away from the House of Lords.
If they want to start banging on about being ruled by the unelected then they should start nearer to home before they bang on about Brussels.

morley pie eater
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:50 pm

Wintergreen wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:01 am


I'm in agreement with most of what you say.

I'm a Tory, but would place myself on the left of the party, somewhere around the Ken Clarke level.

Ultimately Capitalism does indeed require regulation. It does tend to a Monopoly in most instances (or at least an Oligopoly). Whilst the journey does give benefits, the destination doesn't. Imo of course.

Unions were absolutely vital 150 years ago. They are no longer relevant, and do way more harm than good.

You say the mill owners didn't invest, rather they spent. That's ultimately their choice, but in doing so they are running their assets (their businesses) down.
And I agree with much of what you say: I'd happily settle for a Ken Clarke-led government (though not sure where he'd find a cabinet if he looked only in the current Tory party!)

I think perhaps the problem with unions is the same as that with capitalism, in that when power is wielded purely for self-interest/greed it becomes corrupt and works against the interests of wider society.

The idea of parliamentary democracy is that the power should be used to benefit and protect the people (not just a majority but all the peopke "without fear or favour").

To do this, imo, both capitalusm and unions need, at times, to be regulated on behalf of the people.

Lack of such regulation led to the 2008 banking crisis. It also contributed to the 70s abuses of union power.

But do away with unions and you tilt the scales too far the other way: remember that the most militant unions often had histories like the thousands of deaths in the coal mines and the dock labour abuses to motivate them.

When unions and employers work together, which is probably more common than many people realise, it's the ideal situation that benefits all. "A fair day's work for a fair day's pay."

jobo
Posts: 2903
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2002 1:33 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by jobo » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:34 am

Wintergreen wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:01 am
morley pie eater wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:26 am
Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:13 pm


You're nearly right.

Don't blame the workers. They just do as they are told.

But DO blame the Trade Unions.

Why is under-investment a failure of capitalism? It isn't. Capitalism, like water, will always find it's own level.

What you mean by your statement is "capitalism doesn't look after National interests" Which of course is correct, it doesn't.

The reason German and Japanese infrastructure was superior to your "Mule" is that they started from scratch. Nothing to do with ideology, pure capitalism.
Thanks for the qualified compliment, Wintergreen!

I think you're taking a "big picture" approach ("Capitalism will always find it's own level") and explaining the facts from what you've pre-decided to be true.

I'm trying to look at my experiences as a young lad, and understand the causes through what I saw first-hand and what I've read over 40 to 50 years since then.

The mills with the mules were owned by descendants of the founders. They lived in big houses, had Rovers, Daimlers, Jaguars etc, were magistrates, local "big-wigs". (I'm not generalising - I could give ypu their names.)

They didn't invest, they spent - fiddled while Rome was burning. Capitalism found it's level when, over a 10 year period, hundreds of mills closed. The 1 million dole queue ("Labour isn't working") became 3 million, and I was one of them.

Capitalism is good overall, but it does have an unacceptable face. It needs regulation.

You say blame the unions. In the mills I worked in, there weren't any. The textile industry suffered as much as, if not more than, the car industry and other unionised industries.

The unions aren't the answer, but neither are/were they the problem. That's my point.
I'm in agreement with most of what you say.

I'm a Tory, but would place myself on the left of the party, somewhere around the Ken Clarke level.

Ultimately Capitalism does indeed require regulation. It does tend to a Monopoly in most instances (or at least an Oligopoly). Whilst the journey does give benefits, the destination doesn't. Imo of course.

Unions were absolutely vital 150 years ago. They are no longer relevant, and do way more harm than good.

You say the mill owners didn't invest, rather they spent. That's ultimately their choice, but in doing so they are running their assets (their businesses) down.
Yup. Try telling Sports Direct and Amazon employees that a union amongst themselves is irrelevant.

Caboosegg
Posts: 1624
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:51 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Caboosegg » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:54 am

Id hate to think what the company i work for would have done without a strong union on site.
RL's biggest issue is the constant negativity of its own fans.

support verb [ (ENCOURAGE)

"to agree with and give encouragement to someone or something because you want him, her, or it to succeed"

Wandering Warrior
Posts: 3282
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:09 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wandering Warrior » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:44 am

I blame the unions for stopping kids shinning up chimneys!
When John Byrom plays on snow, he doesn't leave any footprints - Jimmy Armfield

morley pie eater
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:06 pm

Wandering Warrior wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:44 am
I blame the unions for stopping kids shinning up chimneys!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Last time we had our chimney cleaned, it cost us £30. It used to be three-ha'pence when the kids did it, and it kept em out of trouble!

Post Reply