Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Got anything else on your mind that isn't about the Warriors? If you do, this is the place to post.
morley pie eater
Posts: 1494
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:05 pm

Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:10 pm
morley pie eater wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:35 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:12 am
^ Maybe, maybe not, but I still do not believe that 1 in 6 children in Wigan is going hungry.

Not sure how old you are Caboosegg, but I grew up in the 70's. Compared to that time, Wigan is like candytown. The amount of benefits/handouts and general "looking after" compared to then is mind boggling.

Even then, I saw proper hunger once. Just once.

Sorry but 1 in 6 my arse.
"Brought up in the 70s?" "Proper hunger?" You were lucky. We were brought up in the 50s and had jam and bread with no jam! And we could only afford bread once a week...etc etc.

We could compete over definitions of relative poverty and compare one era with another. The fact is that countries like Holland, Germany and the Scandinavian countries don't have the level of homelessness, child poverty, inequality, deprivation that we have.

Furthermore, since 2010 we have been moving further away from European countries and closer to the USA in various measures of poverty, inequality, health care etc. I could look up figures and post a link, but what's the point when you can assess child poverty in Wigan whilst driving to work, and make accurate comparisons with 40-50 years ago?
But that's exactly my point Morley.

The poster didn't talk about relative poverty. He talked about hunger. i.e. absolute poverty.
I've no interest in helping to re-ignite a sterile debate about definitions, Wintergreen.

George Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier" was about levels of poverty in the 20s and 30s that we've not seen since then. Nor should we. As the GDP of the country increases, and we banish rickets, children up chimneys and down mines, our expectations rise.

Yet, for the past 8 or 9 years, on all measures of poverty, we've been going backwards. Do you understand that? It's horrendous, and should be unthinkable. What's worse is that it's deliberate.

For example, what's happened to the NHS was mapped out in 2005 by "young guns" in the Tory party, including Jeremy Hunt, who became the longest serving Health Sec ever.

Yes, I understand that there are different measures of poverty, but tbh I don't give a stuff about definitions. And I don't care much more about leaving the EU. But i do care about us leaving the civilised world - not on 31st Oct, the process has been under way for 9 years.

Wintergreen
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 2:13 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wintergreen » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm

morley pie eater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:05 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:10 pm
morley pie eater wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:35 pm


"Brought up in the 70s?" "Proper hunger?" You were lucky. We were brought up in the 50s and had jam and bread with no jam! And we could only afford bread once a week...etc etc.

We could compete over definitions of relative poverty and compare one era with another. The fact is that countries like Holland, Germany and the Scandinavian countries don't have the level of homelessness, child poverty, inequality, deprivation that we have.

Furthermore, since 2010 we have been moving further away from European countries and closer to the USA in various measures of poverty, inequality, health care etc. I could look up figures and post a link, but what's the point when you can assess child poverty in Wigan whilst driving to work, and make accurate comparisons with 40-50 years ago?
But that's exactly my point Morley.

The poster didn't talk about relative poverty. He talked about hunger. i.e. absolute poverty.
I've no interest in helping to re-ignite a sterile debate about definitions, Wintergreen.

George Orwell's "Road to Wigan Pier" was about levels of poverty in the 20s and 30s that we've not seen since then. Nor should we. As the GDP of the country increases, and we banish rickets, children up chimneys and down mines, our expectations rise.

Yet, for the past 8 or 9 years, on all measures of poverty, we've been going backwards. Do you understand that? It's horrendous, and should be unthinkable. What's worse is that it's deliberate.

For example, what's happened to the NHS was mapped out in 2005 by "young guns" in the Tory party, including Jeremy Hunt, who became the longest serving Health Sec ever.

Yes, I understand that there are different measures of poverty, but tbh I don't give a stuff about definitions. And I don't care much more about leaving the EU. But i do care about us leaving the civilised world - not on 31st Oct, the process has been under way for 9 years.
That's where we differ.

I don't think it is horrendous at all. If people are better off than they were 9 years ago, is it a bad thing simply because the "goalposts have moved" and some people are doing even better?

I really don't think it is. The problem with the relative definition of poverty (besides being completely irrelevant when we are talking about hunger), is that with it you will ALWAYS have poverty.

Even if everyone in the country were millionaires, you would have poverty under this definition.

morley pie eater
Posts: 1494
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:46 pm

Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm

Even if everyone in the country were millionaires, you would have poverty under this definition.
I understand your (irrelevant) point. The problem is that you completely ignore mine and keep playing the same record over and over again.

Wintergreen
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 2:13 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wintergreen » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:59 pm

morley pie eater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:46 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm

Even if everyone in the country were millionaires, you would have poverty under this definition.
I understand your (irrelevant) point. The problem is that you completely ignore mine and keep playing the same record over and over again.
I'm not trying to, I promise. What IS your point?

That, in your opinion, some people are getting better off at a slower rate than others?

morley pie eater
Posts: 1494
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by morley pie eater » Sun Aug 11, 2019 3:39 pm

Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:59 pm
morley pie eater wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:46 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:33 pm

Even if everyone in the country were millionaires, you would have poverty under this definition.
I understand your (irrelevant) point. The problem is that you completely ignore mine and keep playing the same record over and over again.
I'm not trying to, I promise. What IS your point?

That, in your opinion, some people are getting better off at a slower rate than others?
Not at all - that's your claim, and was certainly true as a broad generalisation for, say, 1930 to 2010.
What is happening now is that a significant proportion of our population (say over 10%), are worse off in real terms. Not just relatively but absolutely.

And that's not just in terms of income, but services - like the NHS, social care etc.

What is worse is that this has come about as a direct result of government policy, arguably by design. (Universal Credit, hostile environments, austerity etc).

And, worse still (though predictably) it is those who are poorest and/or least able to cope who are worst affected.

User avatar
Wigan_forever1985
Posts: 5280
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:50 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wigan_forever1985 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:49 am

Anyone sat here wondering why racist/sexist biggots like Trump and Boris are in power need look no further than this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49332640

This is exactly the type of thing that gives Trump and Boris and people like them power.

We are in a society now were

the far left are trying to tackle a multitude of insignificant issues in great detail and research (see above)
while the far right look at 1-2 significant issues with little detail or facts (brexit)

banning an advert screened to millions that received 3 complaints is not going to see people like trump and boris going anywhere soon - if anything you will start to see even more extreme version grow in power
Always be yourself - unless you can be Dan Bilzerian then ALWAYS be Dan Bilzerian!

Wintergreen
Posts: 1018
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 2:13 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wintergreen » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:43 am

Weak opposition is never good.

Labour are a joke at the moment (and not a funny one)

fozzieskem
Posts: 3154
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 10:54 am

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by fozzieskem » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:47 am

Wintergreen wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:43 am
Weak opposition is never good.

Labour are a joke at the moment (and not a funny one)
They have been since they left power,aimless and seemingly inward looking with an unelectable leader not good.

DaveO
Posts: 14445
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:32 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by DaveO » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm

Wintergreen wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:43 am

Labour are a joke at the moment (and not a funny one)
Compared to what? Boris Johnson's government that has such luminaries as the inappropriately named James Cleverly in it?

This moron suggested today in response to Diane Abbott saying information sharing for police and intelligence would cease on 31st October with a hard Brexit by saying the EU is pragmatic so it won't.

This is totally unreal. He is suggesting with no legal basis and no treaty to do so, the EU will ship data on its citizens to the UK. Which also implies he would be prepared to do the same with data on UK citizens to the EU.

The UK is already in hot water since as of 2015 it became known we shared data supposedly only for the eyes of schengen countries to the USA illegally.

There is absolutely no way the EU is going to trust the UK with such data without a new legally binding post-brexit agreement negotiated and signed off. It's just illegal to do so anyway. The much derided Abbott points this out and the response from Cleverly is what we get. More it will be alright on the night rubbish.

Then we have Priti Patel seemingly determined to engineer a scandal bigger than Windrush by basically closing the border on 31st Oct who in the referendum campaign was running around the midlands telling Asian restaurateurs they would be able to employ more curry chefs (an example she actually gave) post brexit as we would be letting in fewer Europeans. As if the xenophobes who voted for Brexit because they don't like foreigners want the Polish Bricklayer replaced by the Pakistani Balti chef.

Meanwhile on the domestic front, IDS's think tank has decided the retirement age needs to go up to 75 and despite nearly a decade of Austerity the UK national debt HAS GONE UP. It was £1 trillion in 2011 and as of now it stands at £1.8 trillion (84.6% of GDP v 75% in 2011).

The Tory lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum.

User avatar
Wigan_forever1985
Posts: 5280
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:50 pm

Re: Why we will be worse off through Brexit (Question from other forum)

Post by Wigan_forever1985 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:00 pm

DaveO wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:35 pm
Wintergreen wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:43 am

Labour are a joke at the moment (and not a funny one)
Compared to what? Boris Johnson's government that has such luminaries as the inappropriately named James Cleverly in it?

This moron suggested today in response to Diane Abbott saying information sharing for police and intelligence would cease on 31st October with a hard Brexit by saying the EU is pragmatic so it won't.

This is totally unreal. He is suggesting with no legal basis and no treaty to do so, the EU will ship data on its citizens to the UK. Which also implies he would be prepared to do the same with data on UK citizens to the EU.

The UK is already in hot water since as of 2015 it became known we shared data supposedly only for the eyes of schengen countries to the USA illegally.

There is absolutely no way the EU is going to trust the UK with such data without a new legally binding post-brexit agreement negotiated and signed off. It's just illegal to do so anyway. The much derided Abbott points this out and the response from Cleverly is what we get. More it will be alright on the night rubbish.

Then we have Priti Patel seemingly determined to engineer a scandal bigger than Windrush by basically closing the border on 31st Oct who in the referendum campaign was running around the midlands telling Asian restaurateurs they would be able to employ more curry chefs (an example she actually gave) post brexit as we would be letting in fewer Europeans. As if the xenophobes who voted for Brexit because they don't like foreigners want the Polish Bricklayer replaced by the Pakistani Balti chef.

Meanwhile on the domestic front, IDS's think tank has decided the retirement age needs to go up to 75 and despite nearly a decade of Austerity the UK national debt HAS GONE UP. It was £1 trillion in 2011 and as of now it stands at £1.8 trillion (84.6% of GDP v 75% in 2011).

The Tory lunatics have well and truly taken over the asylum.
Agree with everything you say here DaveO but the OP has a point Labour are a joke aproved by the fact all of what you write there is true and yet labour still are far and away the most popular party!

I had high hopes for JC but he's proved very incompetent he's failed to capitalise on any of the mistakes made by the tories.

If this were a rugby game it be one of thoses were neither team can complete a set
Always be yourself - unless you can be Dan Bilzerian then ALWAYS be Dan Bilzerian!

Post Reply