O/T English Sport

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adrenalinxx
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by adrenalinxx »

stevocod posted:
You said they beat Ireland once and then you said they lost to them!!! No disrespect to Scottish and Italian rugby teams, they are hardly the leading nations in the six nations are they?
They played Ireland once and won and then played Ireland again and lost, the Ireland game they lost was the only game they lost on their Spring Tour 2006 they also played and beat South Africa more recently but then again so did England.

You could say that England’s poor form in RU is due to coming up against good sides, where perhaps the Australians have played slightly easier opposition but it still shows that England is not competing at the highest level.

I'm not a big RU fan but as was pointed out earlier in the topic England RU are the World Champions but many of the World Cup winning team retired or have been dropped and the players coming through have not been able to continue the form, which could suggest that the players coming through are not good enough unlike Australia who seem to have a good system of bringing new players in and maintaining consistency.
DaveO
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by DaveO »

Welski posted:
Through the abolition of Grammar Schools its no longer the brightest pupils that have the best chance but the richest.
And you don't think wealth and success at the 11 plus is related?

It has always bee true that a larger majority the better off families have higher achieving kids than do those from a poorer or difficult backgrounds regardless of the eduction system.
Lets get back to natural selection, survival of the fittest, it is the only way the human race can improve.
I don;t have a problem with that. Provided everyone is given the same opportunity to succeed. Grammar schools fail miserably in that regard.

Dave
DaveO
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by DaveO »

cpwigan posted:
The specialist schools system has never done what it should do. It has just become an extra source of funding. For me, if it worked properly, the most talented sports students would be filtered to the sports school and so on.
I agree. My son goes to a school that is specialist fine arts college but he is not an artist but likes maths, science and so on.

A friends daughter goes to a different school in Chester that is a specialist maths and science college but she hopes to do fine art at University.

He comment was she could not see what difference it made.

I suppose at my sons school the art department is pretty big and they have a resident artist every now and again but it seems to me most parents are making decisions about which school to send their kids to based on the schools overall reputation and other more mundane factors like are their kids going to be happy there or are their friends going etc.

When my son went up to high school I can't recall any of his contemporaries being sent to a particular school because of its specialisation.

Dave
cpwigan
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by cpwigan »

The youngsters are right Dave. The idea was that specialist schools were supposedly distinctive and different especially as regards their chosen specialism. That has never really happened. The money goes into bricks/mortar, the odd extra teacher, a few events BUT the difference is negligible. indeed, schools basically choose specialisms based on what already exists in that LEA. So if a school in the LEA is already a sports college, they will adopt something that may not be appropriate but has not been taken.
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Pink Warrior
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by Pink Warrior »

The probelm is there are probably the same amount of talented kids here in the UK , however many parents do not have either the time or inclination to get there children involved.

The ones that do don't necessarily have the most talented kids.

Sport should be for everybody to enjoy but people with talent should be pushed and supported with lottery or government support. :(
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stevocod
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by stevocod »

adrenalinxx posted:
stevocod posted:
You said they beat Ireland once and then you said they lost to them!!! No disrespect to Scottish and Italian rugby teams, they are hardly the leading nations in the six nations are they?
They played Ireland once and won and then played Ireland again and lost, the Ireland game they lost was the only game they lost on their Spring Tour 2006 they also played and beat South Africa more recently but then again so did England.

You could say that England’s poor form in RU is due to coming up against good sides, where perhaps the Australians have played slightly easier opposition but it still shows that England is not competing at the highest level.

I'm not a big RU fan but as was pointed out earlier in the topic England RU are the World Champions but many of the World Cup winning team retired or have been dropped and the players coming through have not been able to continue the form, which could suggest that the players coming through are not good enough unlike Australia who seem to have a good system of bringing new players in and maintaining consistency.
Well that's abit harsh because the England RU team is going throught transition and very similar to Wigan whereby there were many injuries to experienced players and many youngsters playing.

Along with that, the club/country contractual issue of players only playing a certain number of Autumn internationals which fragment a solid consistent team selection and team moves are hard to read as many have never played together much before.

You say some players dropped from the World Cup winning team (well that accounts for two - Thompson and Tindall) the rest have retired.

Also England coming up against good sides, fair enough Argentina they pushed the All blacks and French close twice this year, but South Africa away from home are in one of the worst runs ever and we had the pyschological edge over them after the first win. In the second we should have killed them off but the inability of poor coaching within the RFU and new combinations after each game doesn't help the situation.

This alone demeans the value of building a national team structure. In International Rugby (League and Union), you don't have much time to prepare like at club level and must make use of the limited time to build structure and bring in new players gradually and individually so all set pieces are understood and players in the build up to the World Cup were not taken there.

Before England won the world cup they had a more impressive Grand Slam in my opinion and the likes of James Simpson-Daniel who should have gone and he was the future as well. We were lucky (given the current RFU structure) to win the World Cup and if this establishment remains in place we won't win it again.

IMO Australia are not near challenging NZ in the world cup and NZ, Ireland and Wales are probably ahead of them right now.





DaveO
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by DaveO »

cpwigan posted:
So if a school in the LEA is already a sports college, they will adopt something that may not be appropriate but has not been taken.
I thought as much and it is obvious this is what would happen. Makes you wonder why those setting the policy didn't realise it. Sounds like the RFL in charge to me!

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Welski
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by Welski »

DaveO posted:
Welski posted:

And you don't think wealth and success at the 11 plus is related?
Speaking from personal experience Dave, no I don't.

I am from a truly working class family. I went to a local school that had a head teacher who decided where the 11+ exam was concerned to focus on the brightest students only to ensure they had the best chance of passing. He chose not to waste his scarce resources on those that after 3 years of assesments in his opinion had no chance of passing. This resulted in 29 out of the 30 students selected passing and going on to grammar schools. It had nothing whatsoever to do with wealth or social status.

My year was the final intake as a Grammar school after we left the school was closed and then reopened as a comprehensive. I stay in touch with many ex pupils all of whom are successfull well rounded individuals-they all started out from varied backgrounds- some well off some decidedly poor.

Without the selection process at any early stage only those children whose parents could have afforded to send them to the best schools would have had the chance to fulfill their potential. This is what is happening right now. With the abolition of grammar schools, if you do not have the financial resources, the standard of your education is a lottery no matter how gifted you are.

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Welski
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by Welski »

DaveO posted:
Welski posted:

I don;t have a problem with that. Provided everyone is given the same opportunity to succeed. Grammar schools fail miserably in that regard.

Dave
Couldnt disagree more.
The 11+/Grammar school system tests not only a childs ability but that of the parents. Good parenting rather than fiancial status will ensure their offspring has the best chance of success at 11+ and therefore being given a great chance in life.

This is exactly what is wrong now, everyone is not being given the same opportunity. The gifted ones are being held back by a culture of rewarding failure and discouraging competition across every spectrum of life.

It's a harsh lesson but in all forms of life there are winners and losers and for the good of the species only the winners survive. We wouldnt be here now if it wasnt the case.
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GeoffN
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Re: O/T English Sport

Post by GeoffN »

I completely agree with both your above posts, Welski. Like you, I was a Grammar school pupil from a working class background (dad was a miner). I (and my contempories) wouldn't have had a chance of going to university without the 11-plus option.

Now, of course, University places are 10-a-penny...which just devalues the usefulness of a degree.
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