Should Lockers be Captain?

[consigliere]

One thing that annoye me when people compare him to the captains we had in the past is that by comparison they had it cushy. Who knows how well our "great" captains would have coped with that situation? We used to have teams full of "leaders" last year no one wanted to do any leading. no one wanted to stand up and be counted.

Despite what some people want to say the likes of fletcher (not on his own but a good example) did nothing to take any of the pressure. Not being a captain does not mean it is nothing to do with you. With all his experience I expected him to try to have more influence.

That said it was noticable how as the season came to a conclusion and things were going much better we had no shortage of players wanting to lead. Fielden leads the front row superbly, watch him constantly getting more effort from those around him. We had better balance in the half backs allowing them to do there jobs properly which leads the team through actions not words.

Lets get of lockers back.
he had a horible time last year, his own game was not its best coupled with being captain of a struggling team left his confidence shattered.
But if you want things to get beter and improve we need to back him and get his confidence back.

Too many people make up their mind then close their eyes to anything that could change their opinion.

[DaveO]

consigliere posted:
One thing that annoye me when people compare him to the captains we had in the past is that by comparison they had it cushy. Who knows how well our "great" captains would have coped with that situation? We used to have teams full of "leaders" last year no one wanted to do any leading. no one wanted to stand up and be counted.

So you think Edwards or Farrell would have put up with the shambles that the players served up in the first half of last season? Edwards is quoted as saying they basically ignored Dorahay when he was screwing things up and so given Radlinski has said Millward coaching was a huge problem can you imagine Edwards doing any different? Farrell carried the team as captain for several years without it being full of quality players so I think suggesting past captains would not have done any better is wide of the mark.

Despite what some people want to say the likes of fletcher (not on his own but a good example) did nothing to take any of the pressure. Not being a captain does not mean it is nothing to do with you. With all his experience I expected him to try to have more influence.

Go and watch the any videos of early season matches from 2006 if you can stand it and you will see Orr and other players having a go at players under the sticks on a regular basis.

That said it was noticable how as the season came to a conclusion and things were going much better we had no shortage of players wanting to lead. Fielden leads the front row superbly, watch him constantly getting more effort from those around him. We had better balance in the half backs allowing them to do there jobs properly which leads the team through actions not words.

Fielden turned up when the club was in crisis and in his very first match was barking orders out all over the place. He did not start being involved like that when things picked up but from day one when it was still in trouble.

Lockers on the the other hand was quiet all season when we were in a mess and when things picked up. Not what I expect from any captain despite the fact some people insist there are different captaincy styles as justification for this.

Lets get of lockers back.
he had a horible time last year, his own game was not its best coupled with being captain of a struggling team left his confidence shattered.
But if you want things to get beter and improve we need to back him and get his confidence back.

I fail to see how criticism of Lockers captaincy is getting on his back. All players get criticised at some point. Look at Fielden in the tri-nations! If players don't perform in a Wigan shirt they will get criticised. Lockers captaincy is being criticised because some of us consider it lacking. It is as simple as that not a vendetta.

Too many people make up their mind then close their eyes to anything that could change their opinion.

That cuts both ways.

Dave

[jinkin jimmy]

So what exactly is Lockers getting stick for Dave? Is it because he isn't as good a player or leader as Edwards or Faz? If so, he seems to have been pretty big boots to fill.

Orr was getting support from you yet he doesn't stand comparison to Hanley or Kenny. Why does Lockers constantly get measured against our past legends?

Dobson gets universal praise because he was clearly better than his predecessor Moran. He isn't, however, fit to lace Andy Gregory's boots but because Greg wasn't his immediate predecessor this comparison isn't made.

IMO there is an analogy here with the great Larry Holmes who never got the credit he deserved simply because he followed Ali.

Lockers should be judged against his contempories in terms of his value or contribution to our current squad.

[Mike]

I think jimmy is correct here. O'Loughlin is a fine player and could well develop into an outstanding captain, if only by leading by example. He is early in his career and will pick up experience over the upcoming season. He's not as good a captain as Faz was in his prime, but I wonder how well Faz would have done in his first season as captain if the club had been in the same position as Lockers inherited. The Faz knockers are in short supply now he has left the club, but when he was here there must have been at least 30-40% of fans that said he was rubbish.

On the playing side, Lockers is suffering from the fact that he had a good debut season, missed the next - which was poor for the club - and then began to be seen as a some sort of a messiah (along with Hock) that would lead the club from the wilderness. This was daft from the start, he was no more than a young player with tremendous potential, he was not yet a great captain that could carry an entire team with force of personality like Faz. Judged against this outrageously over optimistic expectations, he was always going to fail and be heavily criticsed for it.

Lockers is, nevertheless, a quality player and I hope a (sizeable) section of fans can give him the time he deserves to devlop further and hopefuly lead Wigan into a new sucessfull era. I'm sure he has it in him.

[bertina]

jinkin jimmy posted:
So what exactly is Lockers getting stick for Dave? Is it because he isn't as good a player or leader as Edwards or Faz? If so, he seems to have been pretty big boots to fill.

Orr was getting support from you yet he doesn't stand comparison to Hanley or Kenny. Why does Lockers constantly get measured against our past legends?

Dobson gets universal praise because he was clearly better than his predecessor Moran. He isn't, however, fit to lace Andy Gregory's boots but because Greg wasn't his immediate predecessor this comparison isn't made.

IMO there is an analogy here with the great Larry Holmes who never got the credit he deserved simply because he followed Ali.

Lockers should be judged against his contempories in terms of his value or contribution to our current squad.

Absolutely correct Jimmy!
I just cannot for the life of me understand this constant criticism of O'Loughlin.
He would be welcomed with open arms by any other coach in Super League.
I think it's gone past being a matter of opinion on this message board, I am convinced some posters just haven't got a bloody clue what they're talking about.

[DaveO]

jinkin jimmy posted:
So what exactly is Lockers getting stick for Dave? Is it because he isn't as good a player or leader as Edwards or Faz? If so, he seems to have been pretty big boots to fill.

Orr was getting support from you yet he doesn't stand comparison to Hanley or Kenny. Why does Lockers constantly get measured against our past legends?

You won't find me starting comparisons with past players as the reason why I don't think he is a good captain. However if someone offers an opinion past captains would not have done better, that is a different thing entirely and is a comment on the past captains ability.

I have always said from the outset before a ball was kicked last season Lockers should not have been appointed captain by Millward. As I have said several times I thought this because he was coming back from injury and was not experienced enough at Sl level. That was before last season went pear shaped. I saw nothing to change my mind during the season

Lockers should be judged against his contempories in terms of his value or contribution to our current squad.

I agree but the suggestion was made past captains may not have done any better during last season. I don't agree with that.

Some people (not you necessarily) also don't seem to be able to seperate criticism of Lockers the captain from Lockers the player.

Dave

[cpwigan]

Ask Wayne Bennett or Jack Gibson what makes them good coaches and they will tell you, good players. Being a captain is no different. Faz was a great captain but even he saw that no matter how good he was as the players declined then so did our fortunes. Likewise, when Faz captained GB he was often the scapegoat in much the way Lockers is and there were so called RL fans clamouring for his head test after test. The bottom line is no captain can do anything if the players he captains make bad decisions / have poor skills.

I got the Aussie coverage of every Tri Nations match complete with their analysis. Lockers was praised repeatedly. Hock was. Ellis too. Peacock was their player of the series. Roby was seen as outplaying Newton and they said Newton should have been been dropped. They described Wellens as solid but nothing better. Senior got praised for his 1st test v Aus effort. Sterling branded Long a disgrace for withdrawing.

They perceive Lockers as a workaholic. I personally think there is a middle ground between the Walsh approach and the Forshaw one. For some players, adding upper body muscle is important. Lockers is one such player. I think he will get better and better as a player and as a captain. Vitally, off the field Lockers is superb. All the players like him and respect him. He keeps the team together and content. On the field he leads by example. He does not call out much because like most forwards, it is the halves job to do that. Behind the sticks as far as I can see Vievers does the talking and that would be the same whomever was captain.

If you ever get the opportunity talk to Lockers about his hometown, how he loves beating Saints and so forth. The guy is intelligent and passionate.

[DaveO]

cpwigan posted:
They perceive Lockers as a workaholic.

I agree but like the comments form the Aussies you mentioned, that is to do with his playing ability rather than his captaincy. His captaincy wasn't under discussion by them in the tri-nations.

In fact if his approach to being a good player is that of a workaholic then this is not the right approach for anyone who wants to be captain IMO. The head down 35 tackles a match approach isn't going to leave him with much opportunity to actually captain the side and I think that is how it has panned out.

I personally think there is a middle ground between the Walsh approach and the Forshaw one. For some players, adding upper body muscle is important. Lockers is one such player. I think he will get better and better as a player and as a captain.

Which are of course two different things. I think someone on here once mentioned Joynt as a good captain. He certainly wasn't their best player so the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Vitally, off the field Lockers is superb. All the players like him and respect him. He keeps the team together and content. On the field he leads by example.

Not that old chestnut again! It is just an excuse for the fact he is a poor captain IMO. At the very least it is tacit admission he never does any of the motivating on the pitch abdicating that responsibility to others.

If he was a good captain he would have realised soon into the season that "leading by example" was not having any effect at all and would have started opening his mouth more. People need motivating differently and all Lockers did was put his head down and carry on the same way all through the season. He was unable or unwilling to modify his approach to captaincy when the need arose IMO. What was it Noble said about the team not being very vocal and quiet in the dressing room?

He does not call out much because like most forwards, it is the halves job to do that.

Since when! Since Lockers became captain?

Behind the sticks as far as I can see Vievers does the talking and that would be the same whomever was captain.

Unless he comes on the pitch with a 1st team strip on it was definitely someone else most of last season. In any case if you are right it just shows he doesn't think Lockers is up doing it himself.

If you ever get the opportunity talk to Lockers about his hometown, how he loves beating Saints and so forth. The guy is intelligent and passionate.

I'd like to think we all are but that doesn't set anyone above criticism.

When Rads was captain during Farrell's injury a couple of season back he got criticised for exactly the same failings as Lockers is by me now. I think it is fair to say most agreed Rads wasn't a particularly good captain for these very reasons but despite that is there anyone who thinks he was a poor player?

As far as I am concerned the same applies to Lockers but for some reason what were accepted criticism of Rads don't apply to Lockers.

Dave

[waterside glens]

while the players respect lockers he is not a natural leader which a captain needs to be. I still think he is a good player who will only get better over the next few years

[cpwigan]

I have captained countless teams and you would love me Dave. I shout and encourage non stop. Vocal all the time. you would be sick of hearing me at the end. I can shout and you can hear me from one end of the pitch to the other. Guess what, if I shouted and screamed on the JJB nobody would hear one word. Watch the players prior to the kick off. The kick receivers often have to jog to each other in order to convey messages. You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think players can bark instructions non stop to each other. At that level they basically have single word names for sets and a call that means try certain / I must have the ball. The real talking is done on the training pitch preparing the sets / plays. Whenever there are stoppages in play the water carrier runs on and relays the coaches message so everybody including the captain need to listen not shout and bark at everybody.

Your stereotypical captain it seems is simply very vocal. Yet that is not always the case. Hanley was not huge on vocal encouragement. Gregory and edwards made the calls. Yet, players talked about the example Ellery set time and time again. In RL what players look for is a captain that never lies down that does the hard unglamarous stuff. Dean Bell was not a vocal captain he led by the dreaded lead by example syndrome too. Both led in terms of professionalism, particularly off the field of play. you underestimate just how important that is at a pro level. Pro players are awkward eqo driven and tempremental. They need handling wisely.

Screaming and shouting went out in coaching with Murphy and has rarely been part of modern day captaincy.