Should Lockers be Captain?

[Wigan Watcher]

IMO Lockers is a good player and nothing more; I cannot see him being a great player or a great captain.

IMO he should never have been made captain, but I hope he does better this season than last because what I saw was not good, not good at all. The guy needs to put on a bit of weight and then see how he goes.

I personally wish him all the best and would respect him more if he went to Noble and said “I don’t want to be captain” It would be better for him and for my team at Wigan.

(For the people who cannot stand any so called criticism of Lockers. This is my opinion and I don’t feel it is criticism but my opinion of one of our players)

[cpwigan]

Thankfully both Millward and Noble feel otherwise

[adrenalinxx]

cpwigan posted:
Thankfully both Millward and Noble feel otherwise

True, two coaches have kept Lockers as captain so he must be doing something right, unless Maurice Lindsey is choosing the captain..

[consigliere]

My point about our great captains of the past, was simply that we have no idea of just how great a captain they would have been in the situation we had last year because we never faced it under them.
If as some think our problems last year were simply caused because lockers didn't shout enough then i would have to disagree.

I do not beleive that anyone was doing any leading "under the sticks" last year. Yes i did watch all our games again on DVD I always do, and far too often we had a team either all stood in silence or sadly just pointing at the person who was too blame.

Yes I think lockers should have done more, but I am not trying to argue he is perfect or the finished article. there are plenty of very succesful captains over they years who have not been ones to rant under the sticks.

As i said, and i stand by it, we have no idea how the likes of Faz, Giz, Bell, Hanley would have handled the first part of last season. You can guess, but that is all it would be!
As i also said how much impact would shouting have had on some of the players at that time?

I am not saying they were not great captains but if you are honest they were captains of winning teams, two defeats was a crisis. It holds no comparrison.

[cpwigan]

People overrate the influence of a captain. Faz is recognised as a great captain BUT he did not make any difference to GB v Aus. Nor would anybody else. The players are either good enough or they are not.

Oh and here is a true Faz speech behind the sticks. V aus when they rattled about 40 points in the 1st half, he said jokingly, "Help, I'm a celebrity get me outta here"

[DaveO]

cpwigan posted:
People overrate the influence of a captain. Faz is recognised as a great captain BUT he did not make any difference to GB v Aus. Nor would anybody else. The players are either good enough or they are not.

I think you are being slightly ridiculous with the GB v Aus argument. The gulf across the park in that competition does mean that despite a captain like Faz or peacock their best efforts we came up short.

That gulf in standards is not there in SL. We have not had a decent side for several years now but there still has not been a GB v Aus like gulf in standard between us the the opposition.

Last season we lost several games either by a few points or after being in front. The last 20 mins cost us the matches and that is when the team needed motivating on the pitch by the captain IMO. A bit more motivation from our captain then may have seen us get more league points. Wigan used to finish strongly but last season this was not so early on at all and it needed a strong leader on the park to get people back up for it when it came to the crunch.

The idea you put forward in another post about players not being able to hear a captain on the pitch is bizarre. There are numerous occasions during the 80 mins when a captain can gee on the players. Scrums, penalties, injuries, when tries are scored and of course every tackle he is involved in normally involves other team mates so he could gee them up, pat then on the back. He can shout to his immediate neighbours without needing a megaphone whenever he likes and be heard. The idea he or anyone else would try and shout to the entire team when lined up in formation is daft but then that isn't what I expect either. He rarely seems to speak to any of the Wigan players and that is not good a sign of a captain.

Perhaps as I mentioned previously he can't do this and put in 35 tackles a match. If that is so then his job on the pitch as a player is incompatible with that of the captain in the same way Radlinski looked out of touch when he was captain.

Dave

[cpwigan]

I will not back down so you can use your usual tactics as much as you want Dave

The argument is relevant. If the players are not good enough then the captain is irrelevant. I think without looking that from 1998 onwards this club declined season on season in terms of the quality of the team. That decline became more rapid pre Lockers. The gulf was huge until Nobby arrived and signed some better players Dobson / Fielden. The FACT remains if the players are not good enough it does not matter who captains them. RL is a game where each individual has to be perfect for the team to do superbly. Breaching that first line of defence takes only one mistake by one poor player and your losing. I played quite a bit of football as a sweeper. Those in front of me could make umpteen mistakes and nothing would result from that. You could carry mediocre players. RL is brutally clinical. Every individual has to stand up and do their bit for the whole team to be successful.

Communication is very relevant. You honestly have no idea how hard it is to scream and shout across the JJB. Whatsmore, it is not a very good idea. What communication takes place has to be short, one word commands and from that the team know what is happening for the set. Your halfbacks call plays. Those are the shouts people want to hear. The real place for talk is in training. During the match players are concentrating on their individual role in each tackle, their own positioning, glancing at their opposing defender and so forth. Players are far more inspired by actions. A big hit / a great run / unselfish first drives up after doing 2 or 3 sets of consecutive tackles. The nitty gritty tough stuff.

Lockers must have something. He has captained every team that he has ever played for bar the GB full team. Every team he has captained has been successful. Two professional coaches select him as captain. Yours and my opinion are not really worth much are they.

If the captain is so important. Explain how Lockers never changed in his approach BUT he went from captaining a relegation doomed team to captaining a team showing GF winning form

[lucky 13]

cpwigan posted:




If the captain is so important. Explain how Lockers never changed in his approach BUT he went from captaining a relegation doomed team to captaining a team showing GF winning form

Good point CP wish I had thought of that :eusa4:

[Mike]

DaveO posted:
in the same way Radlinski looked out of touch when he was captain.

It seems that your opinion of O'Loughlin's captaincy is based on the fact that he does not shout at the players when they are gathered under the sticks after conceding a try. So fundamentally you are saying he is not vocal enough.

However, you accuse Radlisnki of being out of touch with the team when he was captain, but surely in his role as defensive organiser, especially when in our own 25, Radlinski was one of the most vocal players on the pitch, barking orders to the defensive line about whether to shift left or right.

O'Loughlin's position does not involve this sort of communication, neither does it involve calling plays. You criticise him for not geeing up players in a more personal manner - after each tackle he is involved with or going to individuals when there is a stoppage. Perhaps Faz did this regularly, I don't recall it being a major feature of his captaincy. Maybe if you go through the videos of matches Faz was in charge and find me matches where he did this sort of thing many times I will believe this wa an aspect of captaincy where faz excelled and got more out of the players around him because of it.

The one argument I can't believe is that you are suggesting that O;Louhglins workrate is too high and that he should lower his work load in order to captain the team more effectively. IMO Faz lead the team by example more than anything else. This for me is the single most important characteristic in a captain - a demonstrable and overarching commitment to the team, above and beyond what the rest of players are prepared to give. Faz always did that, and O'Loughlin shows every sign of the same sort of attitude (time will tell). Its beyond criticism if you ask me, surely the only thing you can ask of any one is that they try their hardest.

Then again, even by the argument that the poor results of the first half of lasst season were partly Lockers fault, then the he must have really bucked his captaincy ideas up in the second half
of the season to see us clear of relegation. Surely he therefore deserves the credit for being the best captain in Super League in the later part of the season as we had the best record.

So that leaves one thing - Lockers doesn't shout at his team when they've conceded a try and Fax did.

Clearly that must be the difference between winning tight matches and not doing so - not personnel, coaching, preparation, skills or team morale - just shouting between the sticks. Give the guy a chance and maybe he'll start to do that too!

:conf:

[DaveO]

cpwigan posted:
I will not back down so you can use your usual tactics as much as you want Dave

You usually come out with something like that when you are losing the argument.

The argument is relevant. If the players are not good enough then the captain is irrelevant.

I don't agree unless you are talking about extremes as in the GB v Aus scenario.

I think without looking that from 1998 onwards this club declined season on season in terms of the quality of the team. That decline became more rapid pre Lockers. The gulf was huge until Nobby arrived and signed some better players Dobson / Fielden. The FACT remains if the players are not good enough it does not matter who captains them.

For your argument to work we have to accept the players are not good enough. Now I know they were not good enough to win the league but I also know they were, as a team, better than they played for the first half of last season. That was proved by the way they played in the latter half and while Dobson and Fielden improved it, two players don't make a team and we have had sides of a similar standard e.g. when C Smith was here punch above their weight under other captains in recent years.

RL is a game where each individual has to be perfect for the team to do superbly.

I am not on about the team playing superbly but better than it was at crucial times in the game where a bit of motivation from Lockers in the same vein as previous more motivational captains would have come in handy.

Communication is very relevant. You honestly have no idea how hard it is to scream and shout across the JJB.

I dealt with this in the previous post but just to make sure you understand the captain does not need to shout across the JJB, He obviously can't. What he must do is encourage individual players when he gets the chance and the team when it is gathered e.g. after a try is scored.. As I said in the previous post he gets this opportunity at various times in the game such as scrums, tries, penalties, injuries, drop outs, tackles and so on. How often do you see a player give another a pat on the back for a good tackle? How often do you see Lockers do it? How often when a player screws up does another say something to encourage the player?

Whatsmore, it is not a very good idea. What communication takes place has to be short, one word commands and from that the team know what is happening for the set. Your halfbacks call plays. Those are the shouts people want to hear. The real place for talk is in training.

You are confusing calling plays with captaincy. They are not the same thing. What I am on about is situations like when Wigan are leading a game with 5 mins to go by 8 points and they concede a 6 pointer. Only a two point cushion and the opposition have the ball back from kick off. Everyone is knackered but one last effort is needed to keep them out and get the two points. This is when a good captain comes to the fore. It is this sort of situation that with the troops stuck under the sticks that he needs to motivate the side for one last effort.

Lockers does not do this. According to you it is now Veivers who does this which is a never going to work. He won't be fired up and in the thick of it with them. It's tantamount to General Haig in WW1 sending the troops over the top!

During the match players are concentrating on their individual role in each tackle, their own positioning, glancing at their opposing defender and so forth. Players are far more inspired by actions. A big hit / a great run / unselfish first drives up after doing 2 or 3 sets of consecutive tackles. The nitty gritty tough stuff.

Of course they are but when they put in a 40:20 or make a mistake a pat on the back from Lockers or words of encouragement would be good to see. Past captains like Edwards would never be as mute as Lockers was last season be no matter if the team was wining or losing.

Lockers must have something. He has captained every team that he has ever played for bar the GB full team. Every team he has captained has been successful. Two professional coaches select him as captain. Yours and my opinion are not really worth much are they.

What do you think of Dv then? He still has a job at the club. We all think he is not worth the money so are our opinions not valid about DV? Nobby won't slag DV off either. Millward made a mistake appointing Lockers and Noble has a very delicate situation to manage. He can leave him as captain if in reality he gets someone else to do the job without causing Lockers any problems. Everything isn't always as black and white as it may seem.

If the captain is so important. Explain how Lockers never changed in his approach BUT he went from captaining a relegation doomed team to captaining a team showing GF winning form

His job was done for him by Fielden (who was a general from day one) and others. It was a sight for sore eyes to see Fielden yelling at the team in his first game at the JJB providing some on-field leadership and motivation that we lacked.

In summary I would say your contention that Lockers is a good captain is based on the following:

It is impossible to shout at all the team in the JJB so its pointless trying.

There is no need to motivate the team behind the sticks as that is Veivers job.

The team is rubbish so it doesn't matter if Lockers is a good captain or not.

If the team gets good it won't matter how good he is as a captain anyway as we will still win.

Essentially your arguments are all about diminishing the captains role. You have to adopt this tactic because otherwise you would have to acknowledge his failings.

What relation are you to Lockers are you by the way?

Dave