Klein is Bent

[OAMJSONA]

yes quite nice the only problem with it is Klown is in it

[cpwigan]

I hope Linzi had a thorough wash after being contaminated

[Linzi]

cpwigan posted:
I hope Linzi had a thorough wash after being contaminated

Yes thank you!

[OAMJSONA]

she would need a scrub down with a strong carbolic after being near him

[cpwigan]

Here is my theory for what it is worth.

AK made less mistakes than the Wigan team.

I have never believed that decisions even themselves out. Teams playing poorly get more decisions go against them because they present the referee with more decisions to make and more opportunities to get it wrong.

I will give you an example. If you have read what I said elsewhere about tackling technique and locking the ball up first. I think it was Sculthorpe who was tackled by two players but neither locked the ball up. Sculthorpe passed it out to Gardener and he broke. The pass to Gardener was marginally forward. Withers holds Gardener down and correctly gets sin binned.

Ak made mistakes again, after Bailey then Lockers missed Gilmour and he breaks sprinting down the pitch. He throws a forward pass. AK is stretched physically and that impacts on him mentally. He gets no assistance from the touchie.

Wellens gets a penalty despite dropping the ball at the POTB. It came after a fluent passing move and break by Saints. AK is stretched physically and mentally.

So if you make mistakes and the game becomes 'broken' and players are running at full speed over distance the referee becomes vulnerable.

Hence, the best team makes less mistakes and gets the benefit of any refereeing errors. So, play well and the referee works to your advantage. Play badly and the referee becomes another problem.

[waterside glens]

cpwigan posted:
I thought we were rubbish, I have said that BUT being a massochist I have watched the game 3 times now and Ashley was a factor in the defeat and his glaring errors should see him dropped from SL.

Firstly, Saints first try came from a blatant forward pass and secondly the Fassavolu try came from the incorrect awarding of a penalty when Wellens lost the ball-.

I rejoiced this weekend listening to Phil Gould berate modern referees. He rightly argued that he is sick of hearing referees bellow movement and various other phrases or try to instruct players during the game.

you left out the head high tackle on fletcher that got them their second try. i too have watched the game again and though we didn't play well and saints deserved to win it could have been different if klown had of applied the laws of the game

[DaveO]

robjoenz posted:

DaveO posted:
You wouldn't, and it is of not surprise whatsoever. Part of the referees union already. He made some glaring errors and if you have no problem with them then you have low standards.

...no one at all is blaming the ref. for the loss. Just pointing out he made some terrible decisions.

Why, what was he sin binned for?

What were these 'glaring' errors then? Other than those that I have mentioned in my above post? I know you want a referee to be super human and spot everything but, unfortunately, he's just a man, like all off the players.

Wither's sin-binning was for delaying a Saint's attack whilst our defence was all over the place. A professional foul.

Not according to Noble. He was sin binned for dissent following the penalty he got for delaying. Noble considers that harsh and so do I. Another 10 meters down the pitch was more appropriate for that and a warning to keep his trap shut given the stage of the game and no warnings about keeping quiet had been given. The idea is to ref the game not ruin it.

As to the other decisions the first Saints try wasn't a bit forward it was a mile forward. There was the total none attempt to play the ball highlighted by Sky on the big screen in the build up to a Saints try in the second half. Given Wigan have been penalised for this in previous matches(remember the penalty against Fletcher when he failed to play it properly when half concussed?) it is inexcusable for refs who are full time to miss something like that. I saw in from the stands before Sky highlighted it.

The head high mentioned by Waterside Glens is another but regarding head highs he penalised us at least two or three times for tackles I guarantee would normally have a ref making the round the shoulder gesture.

This idea they are fallible so it is OK doesn't wash any more now they are full time. There has been no improvement as far as I can see and Klien made too many errors several that lead to scores to write this off as an acceptable display.

Dave

[cpwigan]

you left out the head high tackle on fletcher that got them their second try. i too have watched the game again and though we didn't play well and saints deserved to win it could have been different if klown had of applied the laws of the game

Very true Waterside. It was a dangerous tackle and when it came out Barrett kncked on. They then went on to score.

[robjoenz]

cpwigan posted:
I have never believed that decisions even themselves out. Teams playing poorly get more decisions go against them because they present the referee with more decisions to make and more opportunities to get it wrong.

Me either, and there is often good reason for it. I agree with what you say but there is also anotehr factor you haven't mentioned. When nothing you try comes off frustration creeps in, this leads to a fall in composure and then discipline, which is often why poor sides conceed more penalties and it hits them where it hurts, tries! This is always seen as the referee being biased, bent or useless.

Withers holds Gardener down and correctly gets sin binned.

Agreed.

Ak made mistakes again, after Bailey then Lockers missed Gilmour and he breaks sprinting down the pitch. He throws a forward pass. AK is stretched physically and that impacts on him mentally. He gets no assistance from the touchie.

Agreed in that the TJ didn't give him any help, I don't think he was up with play at that point. Forward pass? The ball travelled forward, yes! Were the hands facing forwards? Debatable, didn't look that bad to me. When a player running at pace passes it flat, it's going to look forward every time.

The game, as it is played currently, uses up every square millimetre of the rules, there is hardly any black and white anymore. This makes it hard to referee. As I described above, flat passes look forward, if you pull them up you punish good attacking play. If you give benefit of the doubt you promote good attacking play. The only way to make it easier would be to say that the ball must arrive at a point further back than it was thrown. I can't see this happening though.

Wellens gets a penalty despite dropping the ball at the POTB. It came after a fluent passing move and break by Saints. AK is stretched physically and mentally.

It hit Calderwood's knee. Watch the replay from behind. Phil Clarke spots it, I too thought he had got it wrong to begin with.



You're making a very strong point about referee fitness. I think that has improved since they became fulltime. Did you see the Widnes -v- Leigh game? Gareth Hewer was lightyears behind the six fulltimers fitness-wise and I think that it lead to mistakes as you described above.

[cpwigan]

I think it is a fitness factor Rob for sure. It would be interesting to marry that to internal organs too such as heart rate / blood pressure and so forth. Some NRl teams and AFL in Aus now have equipment fitted to them that monitors their position on the field throughout the game, how far/fast they run and factors such as heart rate. I believe that certain individuals are more predisposed to make errors when the adrenalin etc is flowing and that not only should referees be fitter they should learn about stress management etc. Calm people seem to make better referees.

As you say players losing game handle pressure badly and referees are human too. The greater stress they are under the more likely they are to make errors.

I do think referees are very badly served by their touch judges. TJs are often in a far better position to see things such as forward passes.