Let's not blame Klein!!

[josie andrews]

So how do you explain the 5 minute spell in the first half when Lockers through a pass wide to Calderwood which arrived at his ankles

That pass came from McIllorum not Lockers he did the pass that went into touch because it was over ran

[cpwigan]

You have a choice folks

You can either have a referee who will make the odd mistake. Human error

Or

You can stop the game at every point a decision has to be made and refer it to a video referee. Again a human being with his own interpretation. We can start the games at 5.30 and finish at 10.30. Pie sales should rocket

Over the course of a season maybe these errors even themselves out. Well that is the adage.

RL, players/teams have faced far worse than they will ever do today. Darcy Lawler used to bet on matches he refereed and the ARL / NSWRL knew. He stopped GB from achiving a 3-0 whitewash in 62. St George won some of their 11 successive GF wins on the back of Darcy. The Gladiators sculpture the NRL use for its trophy is actually Arthur Summons (the small player) saying to Norm Provan "That basket has robbed us again" from 78-94 Every Kangaroos Test team overcame blatant cheating by French referees and astronomical lob sided penalty counts against them.

[Matthew]

You have a choice folks

You can either have a referee who will make the odd mistake. Human error

Or

You can stop the game at every point a decision has to be made and refer it to a video referee. Again a human being with his own interpretation. We can start the games at 5.30 and finish at 10.30. Pie sales should rocket

Every RL fan in the world is happy to settle for option 1!

If klein made the "odd mistake" then that would be acceptable - he doesn't; he makes them constantly.

Over the course of a season maybe these errors even themselves out. Well that is the adage.

That is a total defeatist way of looking at it. Referees should be open to the same scrutiny at the RFL as players are with the disciplinary. Thaler is the only referee that I can remember that has been promoted to the SL in last season or so - so instead we are forced to "make do" with refs like klein (and ganson if we are honest). Surely there must be better "home grown" referees that could be developed rather than putting up with our current dross?

RL, players/teams have faced far worse than they will ever do today. Darcy Lawler used to bet on matches he refereed and the ARL / NSWRL knew. He stopped GB from achiving a 3-0 whitewash in 62. St George won some of their 11 successive GF wins on the back of Darcy. The Gladiators sculpture the NRL use for its trophy is actually Arthur Summons (the small player) saying to Norm Provan "That basket has robbed us again" from 78-94 Every Kangaroos Test team overcame blatant cheating by French referees and astronomical lob sided penalty counts against them.

Saying "things are better than they used to be; so let's be happy with what we've got" (I'm paraphrasing) is again defeatist and is sure to continue the slide in referee standards that we have witnessed over the last few seasons.

In the same way that tactics are changed in the NRL (which you are so keen on); referees should be looking to improve their game performances; not rest on laurels thinking that mediocre is good enough

[DaveO]

lol Dave your priceless

Cause and effect. Every person on the field, every second of the game has a cause and effect. The event your discussing was not the last nor the decisive act in that match. So it did not have finite cause/effect.

It did have finite effect. It changed the result.

Wigan failing to stop Catalan going 60+ yards in a set. Mark Calderwood not being able to catch the ball were not down to Ashley Klein.

Irrelevant because despite these things and no doubt the other things the team and coach did wrong, we were in the lead until Klein gave them the field position to score the winning points.

I have read the other posts by Matthew and others and the general point everyone is making that you seem unable to grasp is this mistake was not the odd missed forward pass because he was unsighted or whatever which we all accept the refs make, but an error that ought to get him demoted because it changed the result of the game.

You seem to want to ignore the remainder of the match.

Actually that is what you are doing. You are ignoring that during the preceding 75 mins the game ebbed and flowed but had ended up with us in the lead. A lead that changed hands one final time due to the ref not the players.

Well I am sorry RL does not work like that. The latter stages of a match often depend on what has happened beforehand. As an example if a referee penalises a team heavily in the first half then they may not concede points in that half but the extra effort may well tell later on in the second half.

The great thing about this match was few penalties meant each team had to earn the right to field position. The team that had to work hardest was Wigan. We made more mistakes, we made less yards, we kicked far worse. Those couple of silly passes that went into touch etc = a heavy price later.

Despite all that we were in the lead and it changed hands directly because of Klien not down to our players.

We had a coach who made poor tactical substitutions. Where would Coyle have been defending? Right next to Calderwood. He was took off. Nobody accounted for that in organising the team. Where was Lockers the replacement Stand off? He asn't covering Calderwood. Error by coaches/players. Cause/effect eh Dave

We all accept the team made errors but you simply can not get away from the fact had Klien not intervened as he did none of the above would have mattered.

We lost that game because we rarely if ever put in a consistent 80 minutes of RL. Luckily most teams are ill disciplined and make enough errors for some very talented, superior talented individuals in our team to win us games. To allow them to do so we play what some might call negative RL. We win games but we underachieve week in week out. We play at what 60% according to our leader. Just think that extra 40% and Ashley Klein could do whatever he likes and we would still win.

Why is that relevant to what actually happened on Friday?

We lost it because despite the teams obvious failings Klien got Les Cats into the position to score the winning points on the back of a huge blunder refs should not be making.

How many more times does it have to be said?

They are not players but professional officials.

Dave

[DaveO]

the ref didnt cost us the game, wigans poor disipline and and poor tactics did that. (awaits dave o to disect this post and comment)

If a team is in the lead at the very end of a match and the ref makes a huge blunder that results in a match winning score for the opposition you have to be slightly mad not to recognise that the ref decided the outcome.

What went on before this happened was why we were in the lead not why we lost the game! You have to take the game as a whole as cpwigan keeps saying but I don't think he understands what this means. When you do you should realise we got ourselves, mistakes and all, into a winning position until Klien did what he did.

Dave

[cpwigan]

Lol well unfortunately long winded rambling will not prevent me from pointing out that you are blinded by club loyalty and thus are biased.

Matthew keeps tryping defeatist. Well so far if we accept your views we were somehow robbed v Cats but given Hudds got robbed v us I think the adage is correct. Try replacing defeatist for realist.

Where were these errors before 75 minutes. List them. You all keep making grandiose statements. Back them up with evidence. Any fool can say oh he was rubbish throughout. It is meaningless. Thus far the only conclusive evidence available disproved the theory that Calderwood was obstructed. Supporters were quiet given the referee was supposedly so awful during the first 75 minutes.

Comments by coaches, players consistently refer to Klein doing well and allowing the game to flow. They mention convern about the last five minutes but guess what they all say blaming the referee is clutching at straws and that they need to play better. That's the bottom line we need to play better!!! WE CAN CONTROL that.

Pat could have rendered this debate pointless by kicking his kicks. Our players could rise above playing at 60% of their potential. There are so many things we could have done better and guess what there was nothing any referee could do to prevent us winning if we did so.

So please do reply but I want timings and a list of these mistakes. Otherwise your rhetoric is meaningless.

[butt monkey]

Supporters were quiet given the referee was supposedly so awful during the first 75 minutes.

You better take your ear mufflers off the next time! I was not alone in the critisism and condemnation of these bewildering decisions. But since when has calling the referee a w&nker ever made any difference?

I just wish Ashley's dad had been - at least we wouldn't suffer (and I will call him this emperorkel) "cheats".

[DaveO]

Lol well unfortunately long winded rambling will not prevent me from pointing out that you are blinded by club loyalty and thus are biased.

Absolute complete and utter rubbish.

I may as well say you won't admit you are wrong.

Matthew keeps tryping defeatist. Well so far if we accept your views we were somehow robbed v Cats but given Hudds got robbed v us I think the adage is correct. Try replacing defeatist for realist.

How were Hudds robbed? Did the ref give us the means to win the game? I don't recall their coach having a go at the ref whereas ours was not happy with the refs decisions at the end.

Where were these errors before 75 minutes. List them. You all keep making grandiose statements. Back them up with evidence. Any fool can say oh he was rubbish throughout. It is meaningless. Thus far the only conclusive evidence available disproved the theory that Calderwood was obstructed. Supporters were quiet given the referee was supposedly so awful during the first 75 minutes.

Several have been pointed out in this thread by Geoff and others. And I am sure you as well as everyone else who was there spotted them at the time.

Comments by coaches, players consistently refer to Klein doing well and allowing the game to flow. They mention convern about the last five minutes but guess what they all say blaming the referee is clutching at straws and that they need to play better. That's the bottom line we need to play better!!! WE CAN CONTROL that.

Coaches are NOT going to slag the ref off. Well some with no class invariably do but ours doesn't. So I think the only thing your comments above confirm is what Geoff said earlier - we can't control what ref does.

To make it simple to grasp take a hypothetical example of two teams tied at 28 all in the last two minutes. The ref makes a huge blunder and as a result one side is given the field position to score the winning drop goal from the next play.

Saying the team on the losing side should have done better so this didn't matter misses the point that the ref should not have made a huge blunder and that in doing so he changed the result. It is very simple.

The refs actions affected the scoreboard. Only the players actions should do this is what it boils down to.

If oyu want to quote external sources how about the press who reported the defeat "controversial"?

Pat could have rendered this debate pointless by kicking his kicks.

There would still have been a debate about Klien regardless. There is always a thread about how the ref did and had we still won I am sure Klien would still have been slated for the bas decisions. This is because he is a poor ref and reffed the game true to form.

Our players could rise above playing at 60% of their potential. There are so many things we could have done better and guess what there was nothing any referee could do to prevent us winning if we did so.

This is the pointless "if we scored a 100 points we would have won argument" yet again. Games don't work out like that and at best you are using hindsight to say things could have been different if we did this or that. Well on the day and at the time things happen, they happen qhen they happen in a sequence of unfolding events.

It is not acceptable to have a lead wiped out as a consequence of a refs decision regardless of what went on before which is the entire point of the whole debate.

So please do reply but I want timings and a list of these mistakes. Otherwise your rhetoric is meaningless.

A ridiculous comment.

Dave

[Matthew]

Lol well unfortunately long winded rambling will not prevent me from pointing out that you are blinded by club loyalty and thus are biased.

I'll keep this short then!

Rather than going through a tape of the game that I don't have. I will say this.

Do you think that we would have lost if the knock-on by Greenshields (and reported on sporting life) had been given?

[cpwigan]

Lol well unfortunately long winded rambling will not prevent me from pointing out that you are blinded by club loyalty and thus are biased.

I'll keep this short then!

Rather than going through a tape of the game that I don't have. I will say this.

Do you think that we would have lost if the knock-on by Greenshields (and reported on sporting life) had been given?

Nobody knows. However, what we do know is had Mark Calderwood caught the cross field kick we would have won. You see that is the only certainty as far as the result. Everything else is conjecture.