ENG and NZ genral chat

[cpwigan]

Mike has hit the nail on the head and one I debated extensively with Rob. A slower controlled POTB with a decent 10 is better than a chaotic POTB and a shallow 10.

The way the Aussies create overlaps out wide is on a different planet to what we use. We think we use second man plays yet theirs are brilliant and varied.

[wall_of_voodoo]

Sinfield was rubbish throughout the tournment. In fact, he was worse than rubbish - he choked when he was given the responsibility of the kicking game and we were even worse than we were when we left it up to Burrow.

I think it was a good decision to put purdham in. It didn't work out but it was a good decision. Sinfield is finished at international level.

Overall, the whole world cup competition has highlighted that the Super League is completely bereft any skill whatsoever. In fact its been fairly pathetic how little skill any of our players have, they can barely catch the ball. Its not an unfair reflecton of the standardof SL either - they can get away with it there because the opposition make just as many mistakes. Although the lower Aussie country leagues would not beat a SL team, I bet the basic skill level is far higher even there.

We have no quality youngsters coming through and no idea how to play rugby - we are entirely reliant on our referees' perverse desire to get a faster and faster play the ball. You don't need any skill if you can get up and run at a defensive line that is still retreating, or get a penalty that leaves you so close to the line you can just bash over anyway. The Aussies have shown everyone that a deep back line, plenty of dummy runners and a skilful pair of ball distributing half backs is by far the best and most entertaining style of game that can be played.

We need more emphasis and money spent on player development and coach development and we should forget about this generation - they will never challenge Australia for 5-10 years, they are just not anywhere near good enough.

I say reinterpret the lying-on rule to give more time to the defence as they do down under, and force our teams to become more skilful and creative in attack.

Are you seriously suggesting changing the rules to prevent the continued domination of st helens, for that is predominantly what will happen?

[gpartin]

At least its not just league where the teams are crap at international level


This is the rugby union result today


England (11) 14
Try: Easter Pens: Cipriani 2 Drop: Armitage

Australia (12) 28
Try: Ashley-Cooper Con: Giteau Pens: Giteau 6, Mortlock


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_u ... 728562.stm

Another try fest here I see.

[josie andrews]

At least its not just league where the teams are crap at international level


This is the rugby union result today


England (11) 14
Try: Easter Pens: Cipriani 2 Drop: Armitage

Australia (12) 28
Try: Ashley-Cooper Con: Giteau Pens: Giteau 6, Mortlock


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_u ... 728562.stm

Another try fest here I see.

Oh and I forgot about the national football and cricket teams :sly:

[The Eclipse]

Hopefully this embarrassing performance in the WC will be the catalyst for changes in the import rule, in my opinion there should be no more than 5 overseas players in every squad of 25 with no bullshit allowances.

Wigan are the worst offenders, next years starting lineup could possibly have three British players which is an absolute disgrace and has to change asap. The silly thing is not one of those imports is truly world class.

[Mike]

Are you seriously suggesting changing the rules to prevent the continued domination of st helens, for that is predominantly what will happen?

I'm sorry - where did I mention st helens?

[doc]

Thought Burrows was probably the best England player overall over the whole WC.

Higham looked to liven things up in the middle way more than Roby.

Thought Calderwood had a good tournament defensively, especially when compared to Gardener. It's a shame that he didn't really get a decent ball where he could show his pace in attack.

Sinfield just didnt dictate the game; ditto Pryce and McGuire. We lack a half-back that can take the game by the scruff of the neck.

Wellens is past it and has been for the last few seasons. Rads on one leg would have been better. I was surprised when they omitted Briscoe from the squad.

Squad selection was poor; should have taken 5 props.

England's kicking game as a whole was poor. Attacking with the ball in hand our only ploy seemed to be taking the tackle and looking to off-load. Any hope of hitting the line and looking for a quick play the ball and a scoot from dummy half were nullified by the Aussie refs who allow the defending team to lie on for a lot longer than the SL Refs.

Defensively I think our main problem was not reading the Aussie/NZ dummy runners. Saints and Leeds are the only teams over here that tend to run a lot of set plays using dummy runners at the moment. As a result the majority of the England players were inexperienced in reading the attcking lines the opposition were running. It was like watching Wigan playing under Lowe; all set plays/running angles against opposition who were not used to defending against them. To make matters worse the Southern teams (particularly the Aussies) were not running any particularly complex angles. They just ran two attacking lines from deep, the rear one coming thru' the front one against the grain. When I was playing 20yrs ago we practiced that in training (not saying we were any good at it though:)).

In short, sub-standard performances from players we know can do better and poor coaching from a coach who can also do better.

[exile in Tiger country]

Mike has hit the nail on the head and one I debated extensively with Rob. A slower controlled POTB with a decent 10 is better than a chaotic POTB and a shallow 10.

The way the Aussies create overlaps out wide is on a different planet to what we use. We think we use second man plays yet theirs are brilliant and varied.

Surely a quicker POTB is what we should be striving for, allowing teams to attack, and score more tries. Try scoring is, after all, the point of the game.
What is really needed is a consistent set of rules played by everyone at all levels of the game, all aroubd the world.
The main problem I saw in the world cup was inconsistencies brought about by different interpretations of rules governing dominant or surrender tackles, the Southern hemisphere teams will remain dominant while they are allowed to choose which rules we play by, and to pick their own referee's to officiate at games. surely Monsieur Allibert should have reffed the Australia England game at least?

[DaveO]

Overall, the whole world cup competition has highlighted that the Super League is completely bereft any skill whatsoever. In fact its been fairly pathetic how little skill any of our players have, they can barely catch the ball. Its not an unfair reflecton of the standardof SL either - they can get away with it there because the opposition make just as many mistakes. Although the lower Aussie country leagues would not beat a SL team, I bet the basic skill level is far higher even there.

We have no quality youngsters coming through and no idea how to play rugby - we are entirely reliant on our referees' perverse desire to get a faster and faster play the ball. You don't need any skill if you can get up and run at a defensive line that is still retreating, or get a penalty that leaves you so close to the line you can just bash over anyway. The Aussies have shown everyone that a deep back line, plenty of dummy runners and a skilful pair of ball distributing half backs is by far the best and most entertaining style of game that can be played.

We need more emphasis and money spent on player development and coach development and we should forget about this generation - they will never challenge Australia for 5-10 years, they are just not anywhere near good enough.

I say reinterpret the lying-on rule to give more time to the defence as they do down under, and force our teams to become more skilful and creative in attack.

Top post Mike. I think you have hit the nail on the head. There is a basic lack of fundamental skill and guile in SL.

I would prefer a return to the 5m rule rather than tolerate a slower PTB but the end result would be the same. More craft and skill required to make the gain line.

No chance of my idea taking hold though as the Aussies would not go with it so despite T Smiths opinion of the refs perhaps we should import a few more so we get slower PTB's (and send Klien back the other way!)

Dave

[wall_of_voodoo]

Are you seriously suggesting changing the rules to prevent the continued domination of st helens, for that is predominantly what will happen?

I'm sorry - where did I mention st helens?

I did, as a rhetorical question! What my post suggests is that...................to fulfil your point, the rule change would seriously affect the game and structure that st helens play and have played for numerous years now .........................thus also (if you want me to spell it out) also resulted in their "mountainous" success compared to other teams during the same era.


So if you require more explanations "mike" do read posts in the context of the threads next time.