Good first post Kev
Re Madge his playing career was cut short and Canberra were a damn fine team at the time. However, many o the best coaches in modern sport are often lesser players (IMO because greats did things instinctively and expect everybody else to do what they did) AND/OR players whose career was curtailed by injury whose aspirations remain unfulfilled AND have more years/energy to focus upon their new career.
John Monie, Graham Lowe, Wayne Bennett and many others were very ordinary players.
Very worried
Re: Very worried
RE this comparison with previous seasons. IMO, the Wire team we faced was the worst for some time. Matt King has always been a thorn in our side, likewise Carvell/Harrison do well etc. IMO Wire were there for the taking.
Re: Very worried
Thanks CP what I have always liked about your threads is that you always back up your opinions and statements to reinforce your arguement and I have to agree with you regarding what makes a great coach in rugby leage come to think of it any sport Mourinho and Ferguson spring to mind!
Back to the main point I was trying to make is that all is not as bad as it seems. I am very proud that our coach is not only from England but also a Wiganer. I am proud that our current squad has a local and British feel to it and in time our youngsters will deliver this club means more to them than it would to any Antipodean journeyman. But youngsters need time we as fans need to understand that the policy we are adopting is a long term strategy and requires patience and nurturing and wont be a smooth ride in which we roll over every team in every game. Look at where we are now compared to a few years ago. Sure if you want overnight success go out and buy up the best the NRL can offer (you still can't guarantee success however) but if we are realistic those days are gone anyway with the salary cap and glamour/appeal of NRL and it would put the club on an unsustainable path to ruin (look at the state of Glasgow Rangers and to a lesser degree Bradford Bulls). I am tired of this obsession with all things Australian and unless we change this mind set and attitude we will always be a second rate rugby league nation. You can only work with the tools you have at your disposal. Tony Smith is no doubt a very talented rugby league coach but did he do any better for England/GB than the current coach? I am also pretty certain that the best coach in the world be he Australian or otherwise couldn't turn our current squad into a better one than Australia overnight. Fans have to be patient and I for one am quite prepared to be patient and trust Waney to succeed. I would love to see more British coaches in the top jobs and unless they are given the opportunities and more importantly time our game wont ever move on. Most chairman are under extreme pressure to deliver now at all costs it is only the chairmen and boards with a mind of their own and a clear blueprint and plan to work to that will be successful in the LONG TERM (look at Saints over the last 10-15 years). As Wigan fans we are extremely lucky we have all of the above. A talented British coach, talented young local players and a frugal chairman with a long term vision he wont deviate from in order to achieve in an unsustainable manner that would put the club at risk.
Embrace this and get behind the whole team!
Back to the main point I was trying to make is that all is not as bad as it seems. I am very proud that our coach is not only from England but also a Wiganer. I am proud that our current squad has a local and British feel to it and in time our youngsters will deliver this club means more to them than it would to any Antipodean journeyman. But youngsters need time we as fans need to understand that the policy we are adopting is a long term strategy and requires patience and nurturing and wont be a smooth ride in which we roll over every team in every game. Look at where we are now compared to a few years ago. Sure if you want overnight success go out and buy up the best the NRL can offer (you still can't guarantee success however) but if we are realistic those days are gone anyway with the salary cap and glamour/appeal of NRL and it would put the club on an unsustainable path to ruin (look at the state of Glasgow Rangers and to a lesser degree Bradford Bulls). I am tired of this obsession with all things Australian and unless we change this mind set and attitude we will always be a second rate rugby league nation. You can only work with the tools you have at your disposal. Tony Smith is no doubt a very talented rugby league coach but did he do any better for England/GB than the current coach? I am also pretty certain that the best coach in the world be he Australian or otherwise couldn't turn our current squad into a better one than Australia overnight. Fans have to be patient and I for one am quite prepared to be patient and trust Waney to succeed. I would love to see more British coaches in the top jobs and unless they are given the opportunities and more importantly time our game wont ever move on. Most chairman are under extreme pressure to deliver now at all costs it is only the chairmen and boards with a mind of their own and a clear blueprint and plan to work to that will be successful in the LONG TERM (look at Saints over the last 10-15 years). As Wigan fans we are extremely lucky we have all of the above. A talented British coach, talented young local players and a frugal chairman with a long term vision he wont deviate from in order to achieve in an unsustainable manner that would put the club at risk.
Embrace this and get behind the whole team!
Re: Very worried
I would love it if SL was dominated by British coaches and even some NRL clubs coached by Brits too as that would signify we are once again the dominant world RL nation BUT alas at this stage we are not, we never have been in my lifetime.
Somehow we have to immerse ourselves in best NRL practice and then look for the edge to take it to another level. I do not think we (Britain / SL / Wigan) have reached that stage yet so sadly we need to copy the NRL. Even Aus / NZers who are out of the NRL for too long become only as good as a Brit IMO.
I hated comments critical re the way Wane / Wiganers spoke/speak recently and I very much wanted Wane for the continuity POV. I also thought he would stick with what Madge had brought to the party and gradually tinker. The last coach to rush change through was Millward. The most infamous was Dorahay. Hence my worry. I am not even sure this present squad is suited to razzle dzzle off the cuff RL anyhow.
Somehow we have to immerse ourselves in best NRL practice and then look for the edge to take it to another level. I do not think we (Britain / SL / Wigan) have reached that stage yet so sadly we need to copy the NRL. Even Aus / NZers who are out of the NRL for too long become only as good as a Brit IMO.
I hated comments critical re the way Wane / Wiganers spoke/speak recently and I very much wanted Wane for the continuity POV. I also thought he would stick with what Madge had brought to the party and gradually tinker. The last coach to rush change through was Millward. The most infamous was Dorahay. Hence my worry. I am not even sure this present squad is suited to razzle dzzle off the cuff RL anyhow.
Re: Very worried
Not David Hadfield's greatest fan but I think he sums up in the first paragraph the reason why people are getting jittery about our current set up.kevccool wrote:Thanks CP what I have always liked about your threads is that you always back up your opinions and statements to reinforce your arguement and I have to agree with you regarding what makes a great coach in rugby leage come to think of it any sport Mourinho and Ferguson spring to mind!
Back to the main point I was trying to make is that all is not as bad as it seems. I am very proud that our coach is not only from England but also a Wiganer. I am proud that our current squad has a local and British feel to it and in time our youngsters will deliver this club means more to them than it would to any Antipodean journeyman. But youngsters need time we as fans need to understand that the policy we are adopting is a long term strategy and requires patience and nurturing and wont be a smooth ride in which we roll over every team in every game. Look at where we are now compared to a few years ago. Sure if you want overnight success go out and buy up the best the NRL can offer (you still can't guarantee success however) but if we are realistic those days are gone anyway with the salary cap and glamour/appeal of NRL and it would put the club on an unsustainable path to ruin (look at the state of Glasgow Rangers and to a lesser degree Bradford Bulls). I am tired of this obsession with all things Australian and unless we change this mind set and attitude we will always be a second rate rugby league nation. You can only work with the tools you have at your disposal. Tony Smith is no doubt a very talented rugby league coach but did he do any better for England/GB than the current coach? I am also pretty certain that the best coach in the world be he Australian or otherwise couldn't turn our current squad into a better one than Australia overnight. Fans have to be patient and I for one am quite prepared to be patient and trust Waney to succeed. I would love to see more British coaches in the top jobs and unless they are given the opportunities and more importantly time our game wont ever move on. Most chairman are under extreme pressure to deliver now at all costs it is only the chairmen and boards with a mind of their own and a clear blueprint and plan to work to that will be successful in the LONG TERM (look at Saints over the last 10-15 years). As Wigan fans we are extremely lucky we have all of the above. A talented British coach, talented young local players and a frugal chairman with a long term vision he wont deviate from in order to achieve in an unsustainable manner that would put the club at risk.
Embrace this and get behind the whole team!
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/gene ... 84175.html
As for Aussie coaches and British coaches, when IL signed MM he said he did so as the coaching supremacy, whether we like it or not, lay in Australia. He would be happy to sign a British coach when the quality was available, or words to that effect. Hopefully SW will fill the criteria but having taken a massive step forward under MM, we don't want to take a massive step backwards under SW.
Re: Very worried
Carvell didn't play, neither did Higham or Solomona - we were closer to a full strength pack (interchanges included) than they were. We were missing Mossop, but other than that we were pretty much there (I don't included Fielden as I don't think that he will play again and if he does, then he will be a shadow of his former self). Had they been at full strength, it may well have been a different story.
See above. Choosing EL above Lima is unfathomable. Lima and Mossop should be our starting props, with Prescott off the bench for impact.phil winnard wrote: I know that Lauiki has taken a lot of stick but I feel with him, hock, Lima, Mossop, Prescott we have a pack that is much bigger and more dominant than any other in superleague. We were far better than Warrington and it is the first time I have ever seen their pack dominated like that.
Centre is one of the positions I would say that we are above average in. Goulding and Carmont are two of the best in the league with Hughes as back up.phil winnard wrote: I still think we are average at centre and this could cost us this year but we really are not that far off.
I am confident that we will beat saints and everyone will be happy again!!!!!!!
After the way we played on Friday and the way that saints played on Sunday, you are more confident than me![/quote
To say Fielden wont play again or doubt that he will be any good is a bit harsh to say the least, what evidence have you of either?
Goulding is nowhere near the best centre in super league, Carmont is not bad but he is coming towards the end of his career and Hughes is a second rower who we are trying to turn into a centre, he is only young and his lack of experience has shown him up a few times.
We will beat Saints and Iam very confident and I cant wait.
Re: Very worried
I don't think that Fielden will play for us again on the basis that he didn't play this season and there seems to be no date for his return (he's offered to answer the phones at Bradford). Furthermore I am pretty sure his contract runs out at the end of the season. Before his injury, he was some way off his best and looked unlikely to return to his Bradford/1st season form. He hasn't played in a year and isn't exactly a spring chicken.
Goulding hasn't done a lot wrong this season and I think that it's disappointing that certain fans still like to use him as a scapegoat.
Carmont is in his last season with Wigan; he wanted to retire and the club talked him out of it. He was in the dream team last year and does loads of work in organising and in defence, so to describe him as "not bad" is more than a bit harsh.
Hughes is a young lad learning his trade and whilst it is a learning curve for him, he had definitely done enough to deserve his new contract.
Add Gelling to that, who will hopefully be fighting for a team spot next season...
and that is why I think that we are above average at centre.
Interesting that you are quick to defend a player who probably costs as much as all our centres combined who hasn't played in a year; but not players who are in the team week in week out.
Goulding hasn't done a lot wrong this season and I think that it's disappointing that certain fans still like to use him as a scapegoat.
Carmont is in his last season with Wigan; he wanted to retire and the club talked him out of it. He was in the dream team last year and does loads of work in organising and in defence, so to describe him as "not bad" is more than a bit harsh.
Hughes is a young lad learning his trade and whilst it is a learning curve for him, he had definitely done enough to deserve his new contract.
Add Gelling to that, who will hopefully be fighting for a team spot next season...
and that is why I think that we are above average at centre.
Interesting that you are quick to defend a player who probably costs as much as all our centres combined who hasn't played in a year; but not players who are in the team week in week out.
"And Martin Offiah, trying to make some space, now then..." - Ray French, Wembley 1994
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Interviewer: So that obviously means that you're not going to St Helens and you're not going to Leeds?
Frano: I don't know why I would ever want to go to St Helens or Leeds
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Interviewer: So that obviously means that you're not going to St Helens and you're not going to Leeds?
Frano: I don't know why I would ever want to go to St Helens or Leeds
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emperorkel
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:09 am
Re: Very worried
Must admit I am a little concerned by our start to the season but hopefully it will be alright in the end.
My concerns are:
Players seem to have lost a yard or two of pace, Charneley lacks that electric pace he had last year, I remember at Bradford when Sammutt made a break Hanse almost caught him but I wondered where Charnley was he could have got to Sammut easily on last u=years pace.
The team spirit seems to have gone, in the last two years a Wigan try saw all the players running to congratulate the scorer and genuine joy from the players, this year they seem to amble in very half heartedly.
Each sub seemed to have a specific warm up routine prior to going on but now it justs seems to be a run up and down the line and maybe a drop and sprint but nowhere near as focused as the previous two seasons.
After a reasonable start Goulding in the last two matches has gone back to his old attacking faults. In the first few games he ran straight and allowed Charnely to have the space to attack but now he runs diagonally towards Charnley therefore reducing the space available and forcing Charnley to come around the back of him and into traffic. Charnley has not scored, and not looked like scoring, in the last three matches.
I really hope Wane has a different attitude with the players to his public persona, at the moment he does not seem to accept any blame and puts it all on the players, they will lose respect for him if this goes on.
My concerns are:
Players seem to have lost a yard or two of pace, Charneley lacks that electric pace he had last year, I remember at Bradford when Sammutt made a break Hanse almost caught him but I wondered where Charnley was he could have got to Sammut easily on last u=years pace.
The team spirit seems to have gone, in the last two years a Wigan try saw all the players running to congratulate the scorer and genuine joy from the players, this year they seem to amble in very half heartedly.
Each sub seemed to have a specific warm up routine prior to going on but now it justs seems to be a run up and down the line and maybe a drop and sprint but nowhere near as focused as the previous two seasons.
After a reasonable start Goulding in the last two matches has gone back to his old attacking faults. In the first few games he ran straight and allowed Charnely to have the space to attack but now he runs diagonally towards Charnley therefore reducing the space available and forcing Charnley to come around the back of him and into traffic. Charnley has not scored, and not looked like scoring, in the last three matches.
I really hope Wane has a different attitude with the players to his public persona, at the moment he does not seem to accept any blame and puts it all on the players, they will lose respect for him if this goes on.
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emperorkel
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:09 am
Re: Very worried
Against Bradford it was Hansen who chased back and across and against Wire Goulding ran to the wing almost every time therefore shutting down Charnleys space. Personally if Goulding plays well good for Wigan but dont overlook his faults just because he is a Wigan product, if he had come from another club he would be slated because he is not a top class centre and a long way down the list in super league
Re: Very worried
I despair sometimes when I read these boards I really do. Goulding has been fantastic this season. He has been creating tries, scoring tries and defending well and has done everything you could want from a centre and we have looked miles better on that side than we did when Joel was there. This season he has been as good, if not better, than most centres in Super League and his winger has scored 9 tries outside of him. If Martin Gleeson had played like Goulding has this season then you would be praising him to the rafters.emperorkel wrote:After a reasonable start Goulding in the last two matches has gone back to his old attacking faults. In the first few games he ran straight and allowed Charnely to have the space to attack but now he runs diagonally towards Charnley therefore reducing the space available and forcing Charnley to come around the back of him and into traffic. Charnley has not scored, and not looked like scoring, in the last three matches.
He was great 2 games ago against London and was one of our best players so to say he was poor is rubbish. I have watched the Warrington game twice and he barely got the ball to even do anything as it rarely went past Hansen or Farrell and if he did get it then it was very poor ball that he could do nothing with. He certainly didnt keep running diagonally.
Goulding has got more stick of some posters than any other Wigan player that I can think of precisely because he is a Wigan lad and a Wigan product. The criticism he has got off some in the past has been a disgrace. It shows how well he has been playing that nearly all of these posters on RLFans that have criticised him in the past have been saying how good he has been this season and he has regularly been in the top 3 Man of the Match polls on RLFans. As you say though some fans just see what they want to see, including you.