A post I wasted. Thought I would share it with TRUE RL fans

[cpwigan]

Contained in this lengthy post are the reasons IMO why we were 60 seconds from our 3rd consecutive loss and why Wane is dragging OUR club backwards.

Rogues Gallery wrote:
Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011
Wigan made more tackle under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011
Wigan missed more tackles under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 but less than under McGuire in 2011.
Wigans points difference under Wane in 2012 is better than under McGuire in 2010 or 2011, although points conceded is up slightly than under McGuire.
Wigan made more tackle busts AND clean breaks under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011.

http://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/clubstats

I am sure you will agree Rogues that stats are fairly worthless unless they are interpreted correctly. Otherwise, we are in danger of becoming Eddie and Stevo.

Nevertheless, I will attempt to flesh out your list and placate Wigan's newest cheerleader, Andrew

The Madge way of playing RL was about control and minimising mistakes to dominate field position. They may have been his own ideas OR ones he learned during his stint at Melbourne who adopt the same philosophy.

Wigan made more tackle under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011


Exemplifies that under Madge, Wigan controlled and dominated games for much longer periods which meant they had to do less work in defence and had more energy to attack. Conversely, the opposition had to do more work and had less energy when they had the ball. Where you do the work defensively and offensively matters greatly but we never have those stats. Perhaps we can all agree to agree that the Madge way was about making opposition teams work harder defensively and offensively in their own half, ideally their own 20. The Wane Way incolves taking more risks, using the ball more particularly in your own half, which arguably produces an entertaining if less effective brand of RL akin to Wire or 3 / 4 seasons ago.

Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011


I daresay Wire made more metres too. If you control a game of RL you do not need to make as many metres. If you play the game more in your own half then you need to try to bust / break tackles / offload. The game becomes more risky and error prone.

Metres will always be a misleading somewhat weak stat to use. I daresay nearly EVERY winger in SL makes far more metres than any forward in SL. Speed of POTB (the slower you can make it when defending and the faster when attacking) is probably far more important than a pure metres stat. The Madge way was to control field position to make life as hard as possible for the opposition to get any field position AND then to be in such a good position that scoring rather than yards/metres was not the issue. My bug bear is the view that Wane took from day 1 he became coach that we could and should be destroying teams by running up cricket scores to produce more impressive wins. Wire showed that philosophy produced some fantastic cricket score wins and harlem globe trotter RL BUT it broke down under pressure because it was more risky and the probability of errors far great. So when it matters you lose control / field position. When the biggest advocate of the NEW (To those who think it did not change THINK) game plan was one Gary Schofield. Do you want Gary Schofield or his clone cooaching Wigan RLFC. Wane definetly from day 1 changed the way Wigan played from under Madge because he felt he knew better and could do it better. So you have a coach adopting a Dorahay I know better stance (very lucky he did not have to coach the likes of Edwards and Bell) endorsed by Gary Schofield. You can IMO take 2 views; Either Shaun Wane never truly understood the Madge Way or his ego / pride whatever meant he felt he knew better and could improve an already successful team/club.

Wigan missed more tackles under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 but less than under McGuire in 2011.
Wigans points difference under Wane in 2012 is better than under McGuire in 2010 or 2011, although points conceded is up slightly than under McGuire.


Tackles missed is a vital factor in any game but particularly the big game. Remember the Madge Way was control, minimise errors, dominate field position. I would argue that 2010 was the better SEASON under Madge whereas I would sugest having achieved he CC Win the team tailed off thereafter in 2011 which may or may not skew those stats. It would be interesting to see pre CC / post CC to compare. Even under Madge, if you lose control you make errors. My presumption / assumption is that Wigan under Wane have far less control and have to work harder to achieve wins. Fatigue has probably seen injuries increase too (no facts on that BTW) Points conceded is a telling factor. If you know teams rarely score more than say 12 points against you your requirements in attack are far far less. Widnes 2013 are a classic example. Very nice attack freely score points but cannot defend even if their lives depended upon it. Having to score 30+ because you will always concede 20+ / 30+ is not sustainable for any team if they want to win trophies.

N.B Everybody seems to agree that SL is getting progressively weaker season after season. So it should be easier for Wane unless you believe / argue that Wigan are now a significantly poorer team too.

Wigan made more tackle busts AND clean breaks under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011.


Hence why I repeatedly state that Wane; whatever quotes people want to drag up (N.B Anything you read in the media do so with a huge dose of salt); changed the way the team played / plays from the methodical control Madge Way where speed of the POTB and minimising mistakes was everything to the point players did not attempt to make busts or breaks until they attained field position. If you do not control a game / field position then you start to take risks and try to bust / break through tackles rather than finding the floor / good body position and make the next play easier for your team mate.

FINALLY, the most important stat

Madge
2010 SL GF
2011 CC Win

Wane
2012
Fresh Air

N.B We can cry all we want about hubcap wins but the GF winners are always seen as the champions. I think it is wrong BUT tough titty on me and others who think the same; Read it in the paper / record books as they say.

I will leave the muppets elsewhere to argue we should not clap the opposition

Finally to quote Rik English in our match programme :exc:

His (Maguires) reputation has been growing every week and he is regarded by some of the game's greats as the current best Head Coach in the world!!!

Wayne Bennett, Craig Bellamy and Des Hasler are being overlooked and Michael Maguire is now in most clubs eyes the most wanted man in the NRL!!!!

And Wane thought / thinks he knows better / can do a better job It is akin to a robber being given the keys to a bank and STILL trying to break in!!!

[BriH]

Great post.

2011 Nrl standings Souths 10th, Miss out on playoffs by 2 points and a massive negative points difference.

2010 9th Miss out on playoffs again by 2 points.

2009 10th Miss out on playoffs by 2 points.

2008 14th Miss out on playoffs by 10 points.


Now Madge takes over in the 2012 season, he takes over from John Lang.

2012 3rd by 4 points and to the semi finals of the Grand Final

2013 Currently top of the league by 3 points with the best points difference.

The facts don't lie he is an outstanding coach and leads by example. Does all the training the team does too and will get better.

Problem is, he ain't here any more!!!

[Owd Codger]

Contained in this lengthy post are the reasons IMO why we were 60 seconds from our 3rd consecutive loss and why Wane is dragging OUR club backwards.

Rogues Gallery wrote:
Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011
Wigan made more tackle under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011
Wigan missed more tackles under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 but less than under McGuire in 2011.
Wigans points difference under Wane in 2012 is better than under McGuire in 2010 or 2011, although points conceded is up slightly than under McGuire.
Wigan made more tackle busts AND clean breaks under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011.

http://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/clubstats

I am sure you will agree Rogues that stats are fairly worthless unless they are interpreted correctly. Otherwise, we are in danger of becoming Eddie and Stevo.

Nevertheless, I will attempt to flesh out your list and placate Wigan's newest cheerleader, Andrew

The Madge way of playing RL was about control and minimising mistakes to dominate field position. They may have been his own ideas OR ones he learned during his stint at Melbourne who adopt the same philosophy.

Wigan made more tackle under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011


Exemplifies that under Madge, Wigan controlled and dominated games for much longer periods which meant they had to do less work in defence and had more energy to attack. Conversely, the opposition had to do more work and had less energy when they had the ball. Where you do the work defensively and offensively matters greatly but we never have those stats. Perhaps we can all agree to agree that the Madge way was about making opposition teams work harder defensively and offensively in their own half, ideally their own 20. The Wane Way incolves taking more risks, using the ball more particularly in your own half, which arguably produces an entertaining if less effective brand of RL akin to Wire or 3 / 4 seasons ago.

Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011


I daresay Wire made more metres too. If you control a game of RL you do not need to make as many metres. If you play the game more in your own half then you need to try to bust / break tackles / offload. The game becomes more risky and error prone.

Metres will always be a misleading somewhat weak stat to use. I daresay nearly EVERY winger in SL makes far more metres than any forward in SL. Speed of POTB (the slower you can make it when defending and the faster when attacking) is probably far more important than a pure metres stat. The Madge way was to control field position to make life as hard as possible for the opposition to get any field position AND then to be in such a good position that scoring rather than yards/metres was not the issue. My bug bear is the view that Wane took from day 1 he became coach that we could and should be destroying teams by running up cricket scores to produce more impressive wins. Wire showed that philosophy produced some fantastic cricket score wins and harlem globe trotter RL BUT it broke down under pressure because it was more risky and the probability of errors far great. So when it matters you lose control / field position. When the biggest advocate of the NEW (To those who think it did not change THINK) game plan was one Gary Schofield. Do you want Gary Schofield or his clone cooaching Wigan RLFC. Wane definetly from day 1 changed the way Wigan played from under Madge because he felt he knew better and could do it better. So you have a coach adopting a Dorahay I know better stance (very lucky he did not have to coach the likes of Edwards and Bell) endorsed by Gary Schofield. You can IMO take 2 views; Either Shaun Wane never truly understood the Madge Way or his ego / pride whatever meant he felt he knew better and could improve an already successful team/club.

Wigan missed more tackles under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 but less than under McGuire in 2011.
Wigans points difference under Wane in 2012 is better than under McGuire in 2010 or 2011, although points conceded is up slightly than under McGuire.


Tackles missed is a vital factor in any game but particularly the big game. Remember the Madge Way was control, minimise errors, dominate field position. I would argue that 2010 was the better SEASON under Madge whereas I would sugest having achieved he CC Win the team tailed off thereafter in 2011 which may or may not skew those stats. It would be interesting to see pre CC / post CC to compare. Even under Madge, if you lose control you make errors. My presumption / assumption is that Wigan under Wane have far less control and have to work harder to achieve wins. Fatigue has probably seen injuries increase too (no facts on that BTW) Points conceded is a telling factor. If you know teams rarely score more than say 12 points against you your requirements in attack are far far less. Widnes 2013 are a classic example. Very nice attack freely score points but cannot defend even if their lives depended upon it. Having to score 30+ because you will always concede 20+ / 30+ is not sustainable for any team if they want to win trophies.

N.B Everybody seems to agree that SL is getting progressively weaker season after season. So it should be easier for Wane unless you believe / argue that Wigan are now a significantly poorer team too.

Wigan made more tackle busts AND clean breaks under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011.


Hence why I repeatedly state that Wane; whatever quotes people want to drag up (N.B Anything you read in the media do so with a huge dose of salt); changed the way the team played / plays from the methodical control Madge Way where speed of the POTB and minimising mistakes was everything to the point players did not attempt to make busts or breaks until they attained field position. If you do not control a game / field position then you start to take risks and try to bust / break through tackles rather than finding the floor / good body position and make the next play easier for your team mate.

FINALLY, the most important stat

Madge
2010 SL GF
2011 CC Win

Wane
2012
Fresh Air

N.B We can cry all we want about hubcap wins but the GF winners are always seen as the champions. I think it is wrong BUT tough titty on me and others who think the same; Read it in the paper / record books as they say.

I will leave the muppets elsewhere to argue we should not clap the opposition

Finally to quote Rik English in our match programme :exc:

His (Maguires) reputation has been growing every week and he is regarded by some of the game's greats as the current best Head Coach in the world!!!

Wayne Bennett, Craig Bellamy and Des Hasler are being overlooked and Michael Maguire is now in most clubs eyes the most wanted man in the NRL!!!!

And Wane thought / thinks he knows better / can do a better job It is akin to a robber being given the keys to a bank and STILL trying to break in!!!

Or like a supporter who thinks he knows more than a Coach.

[Wandering Warrior]

Yes, we wait in hope indeed. Thought we were very lucky last night. The lack of leadership was there for all to see, and there lies the rub!
Can't think of the last time we won a "big match". Somebody remind me please?

[East Stand Faithful]

Back on track.... Who listened to the Wane interview after the game, if it wasn't a dig at Madge I don't know what is he needs to win a grand final and a Challenge Cup to justify his comments IMO. We wait in hope.

Where is this interview I cannot find it. Is it on Wigan TV?

What was said?

[devon jim 1]

In responce to CP's nota bena the so named 'hub cap' has the true Ring of silver which surpasses the dull chink of lead of gold rings if you get my drift.NB CP's preceeding nota bena could equally apply to himself in that regard.Again a full and well presented post.Would that I had your obvious analytic brain.

[i'm spartacus]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics!

Two people can interpret the same set of statistics and come up with diametrically opposed conclusions, which in effect means that neither of you may have come to the correct conclusion. Let me say from the outset, if I had to make a choice of which coach I would prefer, it would be Madge in a heartbeat, and not just based purely on the fact that he achieved more.

You could say that Madge took the nucleus of a team that didn't achieve in the season before his arrival, and turned them into winners. After Madge left then, it could be suggested that Wane inherited a golden legacy which was bound to achieve until a point where his influence ruins it. What I would point to though is the fact that Wane was heavily involved in the development of the youngsters who are now for the most part putting in some outstanding performances. Whether Wane is ruining what Madge put into place will become evident over time.

The Madge way was about making opposition teams work harder defensively and offensively in their own half, ideally their own 20. The Wane Way involves taking more risks, using the ball more particularly in your own half, which arguably produces an entertaining if less effective brand of RL akin to Wire or 3 / 4 seasons ago.

Agreed

Wigan made more metres under Wane in 2012 than they did under McGuire in 2010 or 2011

I daresay Wire made more metres too.

As compared to what? Wire where never under Wane or McGuire and I do not understand the point that comment is trying to make.

I daresay nearly EVERY winger in SL makes far more metres than any forward in SL

What I will say cp, is that you don't appear to have actually read the stats yourself before answering the point raised. Certainly there are some wingers who are at the top end of the metres made stats for 2012, but only six outside players feature in the top 20 for metres made. There are a few more featuring in 2011 but still nowhere near every winger in super league. To argue a point on the basic premise above doesn't answer the point raised because your argument isn't true from the outset.

Speed of POTB (the slower you can make it when defending and the faster when attacking) is probably far more important than a pure metres stat. The Madge way was to control field position to make life as hard as possible for the opposition to get any field position AND then to be in such a good position that scoring rather than yards/metres was not the issue.

I will agree that speeding up the play of the ball in attack, and slowing it in defence is vitally important, but speeding up in attack probably has a direct correlation on the metres made in any event, and you have to carry the ball to the point where you are in a position to score (excepting opposition mistakes in bad positions, or 40/20’s (if we ever had any under Madge)).

Either Shaun Wane never truly understood the Madge Way or his ego / pride whatever meant he felt he knew better and could improve an already successful team/club.

I refer back to my earlier quote about golden legacies; I’m not sure at the moment whether he is in a process of trying to improve it, or he is slowly dismantling it.

Tackles missed is a vital factor in any game but particularly the big game. Remember the Madge Way was control, minimise errors, dominate field position. I would argue that 2010 was the better SEASON under Madge whereas I would suggest having achieved he CC Win the team tailed off thereafter in 2011 which may or may not skew those stats. It would be interesting to see pre CC / post CC to compare. Even under Madge, if you lose control you make errors. My presumption / assumption is that Wigan under Wane have far less control and have to work harder to achieve wins. Fatigue has probably seen injuries increase too (no facts on that BTW) Points conceded is a telling factor. If you know teams rarely score more than say 12 points against you your requirements in attack are far far less. Widnes 2013 are a classic example. Very nice attack freely score points but cannot defend even if their lives depended upon it. Having to score 30+ because you will always concede 20+ / 30+ is not sustainable for any team if they want to win trophies.

Couldn’t agree more with the whole of this paragraph and the same would possibly apply to the Widnes of 2013

[East Stand Faithful]

Its on Sky Sports news. "In the past, from 2010 we have not found ways to win, and that has been the pleasing thing about this season is that we have found ways to win and not played that well"

Erm ok Sean.

God ok thanks. Yes I see what you mean.

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

The only thing that matters is how many trophies we win. If we continue to play like we have over the last two weeks then the cupboard will be bare. We need to change our style to finals rugby. If we continue to throw the ball around in our own 40 and make the number of mistakes we did in the last two weeks then we will all be disappointed. Field position is essential and the coach needs to recognise this. Further we need to knock the door down in order that our backs can get the room to play in. More direct play and than lateral movement required in my view.

[Kaii]

Yes, we wait in hope indeed. Thought we were very lucky last night. The lack of leadership was there for all to see, and there lies the rub!
Can't think of the last time we won a "big match". Somebody remind me please?

Leeds at magic, excellent game for both sides