is it time

[MrDave]

I can watch Wigan St. Pats "compete". Or Leigh even. I don't want to watch us just compete but I want to see us do so with quality players. At the moment we can't buy them but IL seems to have thrown in the towel about doing so ever again and as I said, seems to be of the view that being a big fish in a small pond is good enough.

How anyone thinks the sport will prosper long term as a professional sport if that is the attitude I really don't know.

I think IL is going about things the right way, he is trying to make Wigan as self sufficient as possible. If they quality players are coming from within then Wigan are in a much stronger position. Wigan have presence in Wales and in Cumbria to try and get the talented players early.

Unlike in the 80's and early 90's Wigan are not the only big club in English rugby league and are not the only club with money. The more clubs with money the less likely they are to sell players or the more likely clubs are to compete for a signings.

I think IL is actually counting on the sport prospering and more "rich owners" being attracted to the sport and when they are all fighting to sign the "best" players Wigan will already have the best young players signed up.

I would admit that Wigan could have probably signed a very good Aussie over the last few season but when there have been so many "big" signings who have turned out poor (Gelling is not superstar but is an improvement on David Vaeliki)

Wigan were not the only big club in the 80's / 90's. Leeds were always our equal in terms of wealth etc, we were better managed in terms of investment / expertise.

Other clubs had similar glory following investment, the two Hulls! Halifax Castleford later Saints and the Bulls. Does anybody else here think the two Hulls would swap their great years, of Fax fans, Cas fans, Saints fans, Bulls fans for austerity. Bold investment / calculated gamble produced life time memories for their fans who can recall such days during the less successful / awful days they suffer now.

Wigan do not have all the best youngsters in Britain, far from it. Sure we have depth because of Wigan being such a breeding ground for RL players BUT the best we never ever had a monopoly on the best youngsters. Many of our greatest players came from anywhere but Wigan. Cumbria? We have not secured any great Cumbrian talent since Lee Mossop. There was a Cumbrian kid called Brad Singleton played against us for Leeds. IIRC we currently have a couple of Cumbrians in our academy but so do other clubs. Does anybody think Wigan have exclusive rights to Cumbria? Wales? I have yet to see any potential world class signings made? We once had a young lad but he went back to Wales. REMEMBER what IL promised 5/6 signing from RU areas per season! Where are they?

League isn't going to be flooded by rich owners when they are constrained by the cap and all the other clubs vetoing change (The Dr tried it and was defeated by every club incl Wigan/IL). Most RL owners do not want to spend their money, IL does not, he lives his dreams on the cheap. Why would our present owners want to price themselves out of RL, do Turkeys vote for Xmas?

DV was a bad signing, no worse than Gelling though and we have had some damn good ones also, many heralded big names; Trent, Pat, Hoff, Finch, Lima etc.

RL is being strangled by miserly investors with no ambition!

Like you said several clubs have "gone bold then bust"..had their good times the faded away, hence relying on buying your way to success is a poor option to take.

Wigan defiantly don't have all the best younger or an monopoly on Cumbria and Wales but are in a better position than most clubs.

I think people fail to see that IL has a plan beyond next year, something Whelan lacked. Yes we need good players now but we also need them in the future, you will never get a good player out of Wales if you don't invest.

Wigan took advantage of the Melbourne situation to sign Hoffman, Finch and Lima not one would move to Wigan now. Trent was a great signing but he didn't really solve any of the club problems at the time. If I remember correctly Richards was given an contract that Wigan could not afford to pay and had to reduce it (someone with more knowledge could probably confirm that).

The salary cap is not the reason no one invests in Super League, it the poor management of the league and the lack of marketing and advertising opportunities.

I would rather Wigan break any dependency on signing players. If the right player becomes available at the right time and for the right price then great but in the mean time we should look to replace from within.

[cpwigan]

Dave, many of those clubs had success for several years up to a decade and the decline was often gradual often brought about by loss of owner(s) and some poor mistakes/bad luck.

IMO had Wigan retained Lindsay/Robinson/Rathbone & Hilton then our success would have run for 2 decades or more. For obvious reasons those 4 men shrunk until they became 1.

Would any Bulls fan have swopped Bullmania for year in year out breaking even financially?

Sport is about dreams, magic

Lest people forget, Runcorn Highfield used to claim they were the best run club financially in RL. So much so they were afraid to win too many games / if any due to having to pay out bonuses.

[DaveO]

I can watch Wigan St. Pats "compete". Or Leigh even. I don't want to watch us just compete but I want to see us do so with quality players. At the moment we can't buy them but IL seems to have thrown in the towel about doing so ever again and as I said, seems to be of the view that being a big fish in a small pond is good enough.

How anyone thinks the sport will prosper long term as a professional sport if that is the attitude I really don't know.

I think IL is going about things the right way, he is trying to make Wigan as self sufficient as possible. If they quality players are coming from within then Wigan are in a much stronger position. Wigan have presence in Wales and in Cumbria to try and get the talented players early.

He only wants it to be self sufficient IMO and isn't prepared to invest over and above what the club earns as and when needed IMO.

His way to make it self sufficient is to sell its best players for large transfer fees so why do you think we will retain any quality players that may come through?

Who is next after Sam? Charnley?

If he can't keep Sam what happens if Hampshire becomes a stand out player? We sell him and hope we produce another and in the meantime ship in an average replacement as Hampshire's replacement is still in his nappies?

What happens if Hampshire doesn't become a stand out player? What if the likes of him and Tierney stall in their development? Where does that leave us having sold the best players?

You make it sound automatic and inevitable quality players will be produced by Wigan and if they are we will keep them.

The truth is far from it as is well illustrated by the fact we have no one ready to fill Sam's boots.

Unlike in the 80's and early 90's Wigan are not the only big club in English rugby league and are not the only club with money. The more clubs with money the less likely they are to sell players or the more likely clubs are to compete for a signings.

There were rich clubs in the 80's and 90's besides Wigan. Leeds is the prime example and there are unfortunately plenty of clubs who are no better off financially than back them. Wakefield are selling players, so are Cas and HKR.

Not sure why any of that part of our history is relevant though as the fact is we need an owner prepared to compete for what is available whatever that is as and when needed now.

I think IL is actually counting on the sport prospering and more "rich owners" being attracted to the sport and when they are all fighting to sign the "best" players Wigan will already have the best young players signed up.

I don't think he is counting on rich owners doing anything. The last thing he wants is richer owners than him such as Koukash rocking the boat IMO.

I think he is expecting to be able to be competitive based on the home grown talent he does actually retain, which crucially won't be the best players.

There will be no need to raise the salary cap if we sell the best players, no other clubs will be able to retain their best players either if the cap doesn't go up but that won't matter if we are the best of a poor bunch.

Big fish, small pond will be good enough for IL.

I would admit that Wigan could have probably signed a very good Aussie over the last few season but when there have been so many "big" signings who have turned out poor (Gelling is not superstar but is an improvement on David Vaeliki)

Sorry I don't understand that argument. We have made plenty of successful signings from overseas and the UK. Who are the "many" failures? DV was a good player in the NRL, got injured and never recovered. If we'd have got Jamie Lyon instead no one would have complained!

What we shouldn't be doing is selling Sam and replacing him with a player who'd probably rather retire because our famous production line hasn't actually got anyone ready to fill his boots.

[DaveO]

Like you said several clubs have "gone bold then bust"..had their good times the faded away, hence relying on buying your way to success is a poor option to take.

And several haven't. It's just they were not as well run in sporting terms as others. Leeds spent more than us. They didn't go bust. They didn't win anything either in the 80's and 90s. Now they are the ones with the most GF wins. Sport is like that. No team dominates forever and it isn't just going bust that stops them doing so and as Leeds proved flinging money at the problem is no recipe for success either.

Back in the 80's and 90's Wigan were an innovative side. They employed sprint coaches when no one else did for example. They brought in coaches like Lowe and Monie who made the old fashioned British coaches who seemed to base their methods on shouting louder look out of date.

No one is suggesting IL flings money at the problem like Leeds did trying to compete with a much better run Wigan.

I think people fail to see that IL has a plan beyond next year, something Whelan lacked. Yes we need good players now but we also need them in the future, you will never get a good player out of Wales if you don't invest.

You seem to be ignoring the fact wherever we will find these good players we will sell them.

Wigan took advantage of the Melbourne situation to sign Hoffman, Finch and Lima not one would move to Wigan now. Trent was a great signing but he didn't really solve any of the club problems at the time.

Such as waste we had Noble as coach when TB was here. It was in the program notes the other day where Pat (I think) recounted that TB won us the game single handed when we beat Bradford 31-30 by taking it by the scruff of the neck.

If I remember correctly Richards was given an contract that Wigan could not afford to pay and had to reduce it (someone with more knowledge could probably confirm that).

No he wasn't. Wigan deferred wages on some contracts (H was one) so as not to go over the salary cap. It didn't work as it was deemed "not in the spirit of the cap".

The salary cap is not the reason no one invests in Super League, it the poor management of the league and the lack of marketing and advertising opportunities.

Shipping out the leagues poster boy Sam will improve the marketing opportunities no end. Who wants to invest in a sport which can't retain its stars?

I would rather Wigan break any dependency on signing players. If the right player becomes available at the right time and for the right price then great but in the mean time we should look to replace from within.

There is not and never has been a dependency on signing players. Where has that notion come from?

The club has always had a mixture of home grown and signed players (both UK and overseas). It's a balance that recognises you can't produce an entire side yourself. If we try to upset that balance and produce a largely home grown side it will fail IMO.

I do think IL thinks we can do it because if the quality imports dry up we will have players coming through whereas other clubs won't. If so what he doesn't seem to get is there is no guarantee that these players will be any good.

We have always produced a lot of players but every now and again seem incapable of producing a decent centre or half back for example. We did have young centres in the junior sides but they just never made it. There is no guarantee just because we produce more players than some (not all) other sides we will be able to be competitive with them in the side.

Even if we are I go back to my other point that being competitive in a poor quality league won't secure the sports long term future as a professional game.