The Mark Duggan Case?

[Kittwazzer]

I'm sorry CPW I must pull you up for your intellectual pontificating. Everything you quote and reason makes perfect sense, of that there is no doubt, however I sincerely suspect you have never been in a situation where your split second decision making results in someone's life or death. Never experienced the pressures on you of do I kill this man or does he kill my colleagues? Yes I have been there, luckily for me and my colleagues, when I withheld fire, the potential terrorists who crashed through our check point were just a bunch of hyped up joyriders.

This decision making process is honed through training but sometimes it is got wrong. IMO active service decisions, military and police should not be tried through "civilian" (for want of the correct terminology) courts, errors, bad judgement calls, wrongful decisions should be "tried" by trained peers. People who have been there and experienced the pressures involved.

:eusa2: :eusa2:

I agree entirely, unless someone has been in that position, then aren't really qualified to pass judgement on the stresses that people feel in literally life and death decision making. Luckily the training received by the armed forces and the police makes these incidents very few and far between.

I stand by my comment of good riddance and the only people that I feel sorry for are his family. At the end of the day, if he hadn't been carrying a weapon at some point in his journey, and if he hadn't been prominently involved in gang crime, he'd still be alive today.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Or in his case, live by Duggan, die by Duggan!

[exiled]

I'm sorry CPW I must pull you up for your intellectual pontificating. Everything you quote and reason makes perfect sense, of that there is no doubt, however I sincerely suspect you have never been in a situation where your split second decision making results in someone's life or death. Never experienced the pressures on you of do I kill this man or does he kill my colleagues? Yes I have been there, luckily for me and my colleagues, when I withheld fire, the potential terrorists who crashed through our check point were just a bunch of hyped up joyriders.

This decision making process is honed through training but sometimes it is got wrong. IMO active service decisions, military and police should not be tried through "civilian" (for want of the correct terminology) courts, errors, bad judgement calls, wrongful decisions should be "tried" by trained peers. People who have been there and experienced the pressures involved.

Totally agree with you, I have been in that situation.

I am ex mil and was on guard in the UK in the late 80's, me live armed, my oppo unarmed, car comes careering down the road nearly knocks my oppo over then it stops, woman behind the wheel reaches for something pulls up her handbag and puts her hand inside, by now I have a live round in the chamber (SLR), thumb on safety catch and finger on trigger, she pulls out her I.D. it was the height of summer and at the time we where not allowed to wear sunglasses, I didn't pull the trigger, luckily it proved to be nothing, but at the height of the troubles it could have proved very costly, as you say, unless you have been in that situation how can you comment, I sit at home listening to comments I have to stay silent and just think "If only you knew"!!!!!!!

[Kittwazzer]

Totally agree with you, I have been in that situation.

I am ex mil and was on guard in the UK in the late 80's, me live armed, my oppo unarmed, car comes careering down the road nearly knocks my oppo over then it stops, woman behind the wheel reaches for something pulls up her handbag and puts her hand inside, by now I have a live round in the chamber (SLR), thumb on safety catch and finger on trigger, she pulls out her I.D. it was the height of summer and at the time we where not allowed to wear sunglasses, I didn't pull the trigger, luckily it proved to be nothing, but at the height of the troubles it could have proved very costly, as you say, unless you have been in that situation how can you comment, I sit at home listening to comments I have to stay silent and just think "If only you knew"!!!!!!!

And yet we who have held nothing more dangerous than a Bic can sit here safely on our fat privileged arses and pass judgment on those who face these situations on a daily basis.

The Defence rests its case M'Lud!

[exiled]

Totally agree with you, I have been in that situation.

I am ex mil and was on guard in the UK in the late 80's, me live armed, my oppo unarmed, car comes careering down the road nearly knocks my oppo over then it stops, woman behind the wheel reaches for something pulls up her handbag and puts her hand inside, by now I have a live round in the chamber (SLR), thumb on safety catch and finger on trigger, she pulls out her I.D. it was the height of summer and at the time we where not allowed to wear sunglasses, I didn't pull the trigger, luckily it proved to be nothing, but at the height of the troubles it could have proved very costly, as you say, unless you have been in that situation how can you comment, I sit at home listening to comments I have to stay silent and just think "If only you knew"!!!!!!!

And yet we who have held nothing more dangerous than a Bic can sit here safely on our fat privileged arses and pass judgment on those who face these situations on a daily basis.

The Defence rests its case M'Lud!

I could, but I really can't be arsed to get into a prolonged discussion/debate with someone, whom as far as I know has never been in a life or death decision making situation.

[cpwigan]

So nobody without military experience can pass judgement on military matters and nobody without police experience can pass judgement on police matters. I totally disagree not from a PC bullshit angle OR from not having been there bullshit angle BUT simply through engaging my brain.

When one becomes a police officer, when one becomes a member of the armed forces what does that actually mean, who are you actually serving / representing. Far too often it appears not and that what you sought to represent no longer matters or was discarded the moment you passed out.

The police of England & Wales

I... of... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will, to the best of my skill and knowledge, discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.

99% of you posting here want / endorse our police officers betraying that oath and acting totally contrary to the office they represent.

Armed Forces are a slightly different matter and partly irrelevant to this debate

I... swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals and officers set over me. So help me God.

However, there expectations go far beyond that oath. In many respects what is asked of them is greater and the onus on them to carry out their orders and conduct themselves to the highest standards possible even more important otherwise they may as well not exist.

The excuses made and that is what they are were exactly the same ones Germans made about the Holocaust / persecution of Jewish People or more recently in places like Kosovo. For that is the route you follow when you want to show a disregard for what actually being a police officer or a member of the armed forces truly means.

The way to progress is through developing 'relationships'. Hence, why our armed forces try to forge relationships and goodwill with the citizens of Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan despite losing friends long into the 'peace keeping' phase.

It is why our police try to forge 'relationships' with the communities they serve.

The alternative is futile and far more damaging.

N.B I have lost family to war and I grew up next to a police street for 20 years, a street with a vastly experienced police marksman amongst the many police families in that street. He never made a mistake to my knowledge but he was never trigger happy or corrupt. As an adult, as a citizen I think we can all form opinions on whether something is right or wrong without being in every other persons shoes.

An unarmed man being shot dead by a police officer is nothing to celebrate and I am glad to hear today that IPC are slowly waking up to their incredulous interview practices regarding police officers that were anything but independent or fair.

[southernpie]

You have done a lovely job of semantics here. So by your logic I could walk into any classroom tomorrow and teach any subject because I am an intelligent person and can engage my brain and do not need any training. To increase my claim I can improve on your living in the next street to a police marksman, I have been married to a teacher for 30 years.

Because people are unique individuals and everyone's thought processes are unique, therefore use their intelligence in different ways, the people in these life or death situations are highly trained to respond in a specific manner. Human error will happen in spite of endless amounts of training. In today's society armed responses are an unfortunate necessity and as a society we have condoned this. At no point was I suggesting we go along with your extreme response, reference the route of the Holocaust. I still see the need for such "offenders" being brought to task/ tried, but by personnel experienced in these matters.

At no point have I condoned any police officer or serving military personnel acting outside of their oath.

I too do not wish to celebrate any man's death

[cpwigan]

Its not about whether you could walk into another job and do it, it is about recognising right from wrong. So just as you can recognise and judge that a teacher physically abusing a student is wrong no mater what pressure / provocation that teacher has faced, similarly anybody can recognise that a police officer shooting dead an unarmed member of the public is wrong or armed forces brutalising civilians is wrong.

The Duggan murder could have resulted in numerous injuries / even deaths to police officers and put back community relations / race relations decades had emotions escalated more than they did. The police officer who murdered Duggan did fellow police officers in the Met and the country any favours whatsoever.

Nobody seems to give a damn that 6 children are now fatherless because their unarmed father was murdered.

[TrueBlueWarrior]

CP, how is it Murder? Is Murder not a 'conscious', 'planned' or 'organised' death/kill? Are you suggesting they planned to kill Duggan in a split second decision?

[Owd Codger]

Its not about whether you could walk into another job and do it, it is about recognising right from wrong. So just as you can recognise and judge that a teacher physically abusing a student is wrong no mater what pressure / provocation that teacher has faced, similarly anybody can recognise that a police officer shooting dead an unarmed member of the public is wrong or armed forces brutalising civilians is wrong.

The Duggan murder could have resulted in numerous injuries / even deaths to police officers and put back community relations / race relations decades had emotions escalated more than they did. The police officer who murdered Duggan did fellow police officers in the Met and the country any favours whatsoever.



Nobody seems to give a damn that 6 children are now fatherless because their unarmed father was murdered.

And did you care a damn about the children of the Police Officers who have been made fatherless over the years.

[cpwigan]

CP, how is it Murder? Is Murder not a 'conscious', 'planned' or 'organised' death/kill? Are you suggesting they planned to kill Duggan in a split second decision?

Was it not a concious, planned decision? I would describe shooting any unarmed person several feet away as murder.