Is it Ben flowers fault

[TrueBlueWarrior]

I said it before and will say it again, if you are the type to bend over and take it where the sun doesn't shine then you will think Ben had a pretty fair deal!! For me he was 100% absolutely let down by the club and it's an embarrassment if you think otherwise!!

I'd of sacked him on the spot so yes he got a fair deal. What is embarrassing is the way some on here go out of their way to blame IL, Shaun and the club for everything. If you're not happy find a new club, it's not like you attend matches anyway

I suspect he is not on his own where the attending of matches by some on this website is concerned.

Makes you wonder at times if some are supporters are of other clubs and also the local football club.

Even includes one with some form of chip on his shoulder about anything positive to do with the club, even to the extent of keep going on about a matter which as far as the vast majority of supporters are concerned is water passed under the bridge and are now just looking forward to his return to the game.

Kaii and WW, how do you know whether I attend matches or not? To make such a statement really does show a lack of intelligence because you wouldn't say such a thing without factual evidence.

Secondly, if you read my posts in general I have never been overly critical of SW, IL or the club in anyway, in fact I defend them more often than not, so to say I blame them for everything is ludicrous!! I blame them for the way they let Ben Flower down nothing more and nothing less. If you can give me another example of when a RL player has been sacked for on the field punching then I am all ears!!

Finally WW the thread was started by another poster not myself or CP, if it's water under the bridge as far as you are concerned why you commenting on the thread?

[gruffy]

For me it was that second punch that anyone in their right mind cant or shouldnt condone nor defend it was a cowardly attack on a man on the floor and at the time if i owned the club i would have sacked him for bringing the club into disrepute hell i'd have met him in the tunnel with a bottle of juice and his P45.

But time has tempered my view of this incident,i dont care about the referee,blah blah heard it before no team thinks the ref is for them we're no different so it cuts no ice with me,that said he did his time missed a few games,it could have been far worse in my view.

Those that say well its a playing field etc time was you could hide behind that but not now when Footballers can be jailed well im sure if they so chose the police and the CPS could go after a rugby player.

This wasnt a normal fight to go after a man on the ground spark out and hit again is beyond the pail and again in my view i think he's lucky he still plays for the club,but i will welcome him back he's done his time with dignity and grace and that he offered no defense he went up in my estimation by doing this,plus i suspect the legal boys told him to shut it and take the punishment.

The whole sorry affair is coming to a close now you can only hope he's learnt from it.

[keptinthedarkfans]

Was not going to comment further on this.But obviously. some can't forgive or forget.For me done the crime served his time move on. What I find astounding his Flower hit a player after being attacked first (not condonning he was badly wrong)in the heat of a pressured game. got 10 games wages cut and villified by media CLUB and fans. Zac Hardacker goes looking for a member of the public in private property seriously assults him with another person thats 2 onto 1. gets £200 fine slap on wrist don't do it again and all is forgoten by media club and fans.Hold on there has to be a balance somewhere.

[TrueBlueWarrior]

Was not going to comment further on this.But obviously. some can't forgive or forget.For me done the crime served his time move on. What I find astounding his Flower hit a player after being attacked first (not condonning he was badly wrong)in the heat of a pressured game. got 10 games wages cut and villified by media CLUB and fans. Zac Hardacker goes looking for a member of the public in private property seriously assults him with another person thats 2 onto 1. gets £200 fine slap on wrist don't do it again and all is forgoten by media club and fans.Hold on there has to be a balance somewhere.

Gruffy, Kaii and WW, make sure you read this post please!!

....and I don't recall anyone condoning the 2nd punch, some posters me included are angry at the club for the way they handled Ben!!

Was Hardaker sacked?

[cpwigan]

I have no issues with anyone else's views here, some wanted less punishment, some thought it was about OK and a few even think more was appropriate.

The issue I have is that you in particular cp seem to want to re-write history with BF as the victim. As you say, after all, he barely touched the saints player who was the real bad guy. Oh and the RFL and the refs were also the bad guys. Oh and the club too. Oh and Wane in particular who was legally culpable for the attack (which didn't really happen anyway and even if it did it was totally understandable as you have insinuated you have personally done the same sort of thing in similar circumstances all the time, and it happens all the time in SL anyway, even though it didn't actually happen here). I'm amazed that BF hasn't gone to court about this yet as it is all just so clear cut. It must be clear from the video. Video was enough for Feka to get done for assault so surely BF can clear his name and take everyone to court as you suggested earlier? He can easily show that it wasn't a real punch, you can get boxing experts in to support him because punching is all about the hips and his technique was terrible. And LH didn't have a fractured skull so it can't have been a proper punch. It was just a tap to make some sort of point - right? Why is *he* not doing that? Who's making him accept his punishment when he is so clearly the wronged party? Conspiracy? Wane? IL? Wants to keep his job?

None of it fits IMO. But it does for you. It boggles my mind. It seems an unreasonable viewpoint and very far from what i saw that day.

I personally have never seen a player punch an unconscious opponent on the ground before. I also haven't seen any highlights packages of other incidents like that. I have seen many fights though. Number of punches doesn't make an incident equivalent IMO. I must have missed all the other equivalent incidents because you say there are many. I've seeen some pretty bad assaults of a different nature, the Terry N/S Long elbow springs to mind. But they are very rare and tend to attract the same type of exceptional bans as were handed out this time.

First and foremost Mike was he unconcious? He walked off the field of play IIRC. The first punch was far too good for a RL player. The second includes a pause which in effect makes it a jab and nothing like the first punch. Sure it was distasteful BUT is that worse than a player earlier in the season punching a Wigan player several times without provocation / reply.

In any illegality court of law / sport you have to look at the whole picture and any mitigating circumstances. People including yourself seem afraid to answer questions when posed because they do not suit what you believe or want to believe. So we get the insults v debate. It is not me v you. You POV is at odds with other posters.

Was Ben Flower guilty of foul play YES have I said so in this thread and before YES (which renders your argument false). The difference is I argue there was provocation and thus mitigating factors which is what anybody defending somebody would say. Lest we forget Wigan said before they walked into Red Hall we will not be defending Ben Flower. Sorry but IMO that is WRONG.

I asked previously why would a man / woman raped be treated more leniently if she killed said rapist with a knife immediately after the rape than somebody who simply went into a shopping mall and shot a complete stranger dead? We all know why! Mitigation / provocation. If people can offer that as a defence in such a more serious incident then I am sure as hell we can agree it can be used for a sports event.

So is there anybody including you Mike that believes Ben was deserving of a send off but that that he should have been defended on the basis of Mitigation provocation?

[TrueBlueWarrior]

Totally agree CP, and when people compare it to the workplace that you would be sacked straight away is laughable, I mean if one of my colleagues forearm smashed me in my face when I was defenceless then my boss would sack me if I didn't crack him back!!

[old hooker]

Everyone has a right to a point of view, but it is always the same posters, barrack room lawyers who pretend to know everything,is an appropriate term whom consistently provoke childish arguments.I have learned over a period of time it is far better to just post an opinion,and when you get a load of abuse just because of your point of view,to ignore the abuse and you will not give anyone any satisfaction of thinking they have wound you up.

[cpwigan]

I also made the point at the time that the real opportunity was to use the incident to change RFL disciplinary processes and that in X months nothing would change for the better. Not that it matters BUT I was right.

Hull KR beat Saints and all people can mention is GREAT Saints have been beaten and what a disgrace the two forward pass tries were. Only 1 person mentioned that Hull KR should have played the game with 12 men and that there was a potentially far more damaging late ASSAULT by Green on Burns. Burns was far more likely to end up with a serious injury than by a punch.

I thought Green BTW was excellent. I wanted Saints to lose. I have previously advocated that teams should 'provoke' Burns as he has a short fuse BUT it did not stop me seeing what was in front of us all Icl you MIKE and everybody turned a blind eye to it.

Bit like we cheered Andy Greg when he forearmed smashed Mal Meninga at CP in the Wigan v Australia 86 game or when Barry McDermott forearm smashed Paul Sironen in 90 Wigan v Australia?

One of my RL heroes and one for 99% of Wiganers is Brian McTigue. Mac was a very good boxer, Mac would sometimes leave opponents KOd at scrums BUT Mac was not a dirty player, far from it. Here was a talented / trained boxer, a RL hall of famer and nobody was the slightest concerned because punches in RL rarely if ever cause serious injury BUT by some peoples argument Mac should have been sacked by Wigan, jailed etc etc and you find what I say hilarious Mike A really nasty incident of foul play with long term impact was Harrogan on Ian Lucas. Luckily Lucas was intelligent and able to rebuild his career / life post RL.

[TrueBlueWarrior]

Everyone has a right to a point of view, but it is always the same posters, barrack room lawyers who pretend to know everything,is an appropriate term whom consistently provoke childish arguments.I have learned over a period of time it is far better to just post an opinion,and when you get a load of abuse just because of your point of view,to ignore the abuse and you will not give anyone any satisfaction of thinking they have wound you up.

People only get wound up when they know they are wrong or don't have an appropriate response!!

[Wigan_forever1985]

Not sure why we are raking over this again but ill say now exactly the same as i said then.

I think the ban was fair

if you look at the sequence of events as a whole from the start it is ben flower who starts it all, LH reacts poorly and flower reacts even more poorly to LH's reaction.

Without the 2nd punch the incident would have had no teeth but infront of a massive crowd on the biggest occasion in the calender i can see exactly why the incident was treated like it was.

Im not saying that punishements are consistent, of course they are not and it shouldnt be ignored the fact that flower is a forward and LH is a back was and always is a factor. Rob burrow could throw a million punches at someone like adrian morely and probably not leave the field - wrong yes, but we live in the real world and each incident has to be judged on its own merit.

To be honest its done now, so we need to move on