EU ?

[Owd Codger]

I do hope you are not considering me a Government member or supporter as I am most certainly not.
I am a supporter of staying in the EU as I believe from my life and work experience we are far, far better in the EU than out of it.
In the first post I wrote I explained why having seen our exports markets lost in the early 1960's, firms lose the business and then lose workers. I don't want to see that happen again with the devestation it brings.
As the post above mentions, Airbus will go for certain if we pull out risking up to 100,000 jobs within the UK.
Vauxhall's will have their cars tariffed if we pull out whereas now they are not tariffed. General Motors have plants throughout Europe and a new Astra could and would quite easily be built there. Same applies to Nissan.

The "Leave" people are lazy, they have talked and talked about leaving and not done anything. Nothing on trade, they don't have the beginings of a deal. Nothing on Banking, they wouldn't know where to start. Nothing on Agricuture and it's subsidies, they are utterly clueless.
Nothing on taxation either.
How on earth could you trust that clueless bunch to conduct negotiations with the EU, NAFTA, or the BRIC countries.

We simply have to trust in what we've got as the "Leavers" have not done any work and don't have anything to offer.
If we Remain we gain, if we Leave we lose!

What gives you the right to accuse people in the 'Out' campaign of being clueless and nothing to offer as they in your opinion have never worked?

There are people in the 'In' campaign who who many might regard as clueless and as for not doing any work, what about those in the establishment or those on a nice little earners in our Parliament with their ever increasing salaries/Expenses, not to mention the EU MP's on the Brussels gravy train of again high salaries/expenses.

Why you are going over the top in saying that we should stay in when it is so obvious that the Government will make sure we stay in by hook or by crook, because many of them have vested interests in the European Union.

Do you honestly think that they are going to allow the public to decide otherwise in a cosmetic excercise of a referendum which in reality is a waste of time and money as the decision to stay in will be determined by the Tory media who will make damm sure that the public will vote how the Establishment want them to vote like they always do in this country!

[SJ]

I think Ted's and Whelleys posts show how this issue is polarising opinion. There are obviously going to be winners and losers whichever way the vote goes. I do know that farmers down here will lose out on subsidies which account for a sizeable chunk of their income In the HofLords the other day both Nigel Lawson and Lord Howard said they will be voting out and criticised the government scare tactics whereas Lord Ashdown said it would be folly to leave. My gut feeling is to leave but is that a firm basis to ground a vote on? I think not so I'm somewhat in a dilemma has I suspect many others will be :eh: We need an independent Third party to give us the information we need to make an informed decision but where do we get that from? In the final analysis I think people will just follow their gut feeling.

[Owd Codger]

I think Ted's and Whelleys posts show how this issue is polarising opinion. There are obviously going to be winners and losers whichever way the vote goes. I do know that farmers down here will lose out on subsidies which account for a sizeable chunk of their income In the HofLords the other day both Nigel Lawson and Lord Howard said they will be voting out and criticised the government scare tactics whereas Lord Ashdown said it would be folly to leave. My gut feeling is to leave but is that a firm basis to ground a vote on? I think not so I'm somewhat in a dilemma has I suspect many others will be :eh: We need an independent Third party to give us the information we need to make an informed decision but where do we get that from? In the final analysis I think people will just follow their gut feeling.

And the gut feeling will be for many, a vote to remain in the EU, because wqhen it comes to decisions of this kind, people in our country simply have a tradition of doing what the Government 'advise' them to do, especially when, if they have no interest in politics or the the pro's or cons of bodies like the EU.

I will being voting to come out of what is a burocratic gravy train for politicians, but I am old and wise enough to know that when Government want their own way on a matter where they have their own vested interests and the support of the other two main political parties, they will make damm sure they get there own way and will not allow the public to decide otherwise.

In other words, a pointless exercise to make the public think we have a say in matters of national importance when in reality, the opposite is the case as proved by the brainwashing!

[medlocke]

It's all Bollox

[Wiganer Ted]

In reply to Whelley W.
I called them clueless and not done their homework on the subject as I've been to EU Referendum meetings, asked very basic questions and they haven't been able to answer.

Like, What would you do with VAT, a European Tax?
They asked what I meant, so I replied asking would they replace it, change it for a new tax or bring back its predecessor tax. They didn't know the forerunner to VAT was Purchase Tax that was abolished for VAT let alone the rate it was charged at. Anyone talking about the EU and leaving should know everything about VAT and taxation.

I challenged them on their idea that we could leave the EU and still retain a trade free agreement with the EU.
They were absolutely certain that they could along with abolishing payments to the EU and closing borders to EU Free movement.
The German Finance Minister, Mr(Herr)Schauble dismissed their plan as nonsense in his interview with Andrew Marr yesterday.

Only one way to retain a Free Trade Deal with the EU and that's to stay in the EU.
Remain and our jobs will Remain.
Leave and our jobs will Leave.

[keptinthedarkfans]

In reply to Whelley W.
I called them clueless and not done their homework on the subject as I've been to EU Referendum meetings, asked very basic questions and they haven't been able to answer.

Like, What would you do with VAT, a European Tax?
They asked what I meant, so I replied asking would they replace it, change it for a new tax or bring back its predecessor tax. They didn't know the forerunner to VAT was Purchase Tax that was abolished for VAT let alone the rate it was charged at. Anyone talking about the EU and leaving should know everything about VAT and taxation.

I challenged them on their idea that we could leave the EU and still retain a trade free agreement with the EU.
They were absolutely certain that they could along with abolishing payments to the EU and closing borders to EU Free movement.
The German Finance Minister, Mr(Herr)Schauble dismissed their plan as nonsense in his interview with Andrew Marr yesterday.

Only one way to retain a Free Trade Deal with the EU and that's to stay in the EU.
Remain and our jobs will Remain.
Leave and our jobs will Leave.

Perfect politicians reply. ITS CALLED SCARE MONGERING. with nothing to substantiate your claim.

[Owd Codger]

In reply to Whelley W.
I called them clueless and not done their homework on the subject as I've been to EU Referendum meetings, asked very basic questions and they haven't been able to answer.

Like, What would you do with VAT, a European Tax?
They asked what I meant, so I replied asking would they replace it, change it for a new tax or bring back its predecessor tax. They didn't know the forerunner to VAT was Purchase Tax that was abolished for VAT let alone the rate it was charged at. Anyone talking about the EU and leaving should know everything about VAT and taxation.

I challenged them on their idea that we could leave the EU and still retain a trade free agreement with the EU.
They were absolutely certain that they could along with abolishing payments to the EU and closing borders to EU Free movement.
The German Finance Minister, Mr(Herr)Schauble dismissed their plan as nonsense in his interview with Andrew Marr yesterday.

Only one way to retain a Free Trade Deal with the EU and that's to stay in the EU.
Remain and our jobs will Remain.
Leave and our jobs will Leave.

I am in no doubt that people who want to 'come out' have attended 'stay in' meetings and had to sit listening to the same old brainwashing and waffle that always comes from Politicians with a vested interest in being in the European Union.

Politicians like the German Finance Minister and indeed the French Prime Minister will support it when many of their fellow party members are on a gravy train of fat salaries, massive expenses and staying in Brussels Five Star Hotels when they acually are there in a session.

If the European Union is so concerned about maintaining jobs within the UK and indeeed Europe, why don't they do something about our industries being bought by non Europeans who the asset strip and take the profitable parts back to their own countries, not to mention dodging paying taxes. A classic example being the Indian owners of OUR steel industry.

And not everyone is working for car companies who are also on a gravy train of ever increasing car sales as more and more people flood into the country and take to the roads and add to more and more gridlock.

Are you by any chance a member of one of the three main Political Parties as you sound like it with the arguments you are putting forward.

Being a Politician these days, be it a Councillor, MP or Euro MP is now all about what they can get out of it, irrespective of how it could affect the ordinary members of the public.

Finally, like other countries in Europe who are non members but have a good standard of living, we can still trade with other Europen countries and indeed the world.

Live today and sod tomorrow is the motto of Politicians!

[Wiganer Ted]

No I'm not a politician nor a member of any political party. Never have been and never will be.

My views are not dependent on any politician or political party but what I've seen and experienced in my working life and personal situation.

My first concern about jobs as I have seen two periods in which jobs have gone in the millions.
First was the loss of trade in the late fifties and sixties when our old commonwealth started buying their manufactures from other countries. The UK was then described as being "in a permenant state of economic decline". Joining the common market was seen as our last chance saloon. We joined and have overall thrived since.
Second was the period of de-industrialisation of the UK as a consequnce of Thatcher's fight with the Miners and other trade unions. We lost the greater part of the coal and iron and steel industries. Millions of jobs were lost over scores of industries.

I don't want us to repeat the first of our difficulties by this time deliberately cutting ourselves off from our main trading zone, the EU.
I will support staying in the EU until someone can convince me there are better economic prospects for us all in the UK by leaving.
Up to now I've not heard one idea or suggestion as to why we'd be better off outside the EU rather than in it.

[Fujiman]

I've heard as many politicians and experts say we'd be better off out as have said stay in. So for me it's down to sovereignty. If we leave we get it back if we stay in we slide further into a big federal state were were ruled by faceless beaurocrats in Brussels and we have less of a say in our own destiny.

[Owd Codger]

No I'm not a politician nor a member of any political party. Never have been and never will be.

My views are not dependent on any politician or political party but what I've seen and experienced in my working life and personal situation.

My first concern about jobs as I have seen two periods in which jobs have gone in the millions.
First was the loss of trade in the late fifties and sixties when our old commonwealth started buying their manufactures from other countries. The UK was then described as being "in a permenant state of economic decline". Joining the common market was seen as our last chance saloon. We joined and have overall thrived since.
Second was the period of de-industrialisation of the UK as a consequnce of Thatcher's fight with the Miners and other trade unions. We lost the greater part of the coal and iron and steel industries. Millions of jobs were lost over scores of industries.

I don't want us to repeat the first of our difficulties by this time deliberately cutting ourselves off from our main trading zone, the EU.
I will support staying in the EU until someone can convince me there are better economic prospects for us all in the UK by leaving.
Up to now I've not heard one idea or suggestion as to why
we'd be better off outside the EU rather than in it.

Perhaps its because you support it so much that you don't want to listen to the opinions of those who want to come out of it!