What is happening to the Labour Party?

[fozzieskem]

The Torres always offer the illusion of helping the working classes,giving a leg up to the middle classes etc,they're very good at it when all they are doing is helping the very richest in society.

Austerity 6 years of it this country has just endured and now the penny drops it simply hasn't worked,who did that hurt the most?

[Wintergreen]

If it were not for the efforts of the many members of the Labour Party (Social Democrats in some other countries) and their colleagues in the Trade Union movement over the the past century or so, would you be enjoying the standard of living you have today or do you think that it would have been handed to you on a plate by the establishment and the Tory party?

That is what 'Democratic Socialism' is about. That is until Blair and company took the party in our country from its roots as a Democratic Socialist party in order to attract the middle class vote with the result that in the eyes of many, people like Corbyn now look like a hard line left wing extremist and the party now looking like a second Tory party to many traditional Labour voters who like myself, no longer see the present Labour party as a real alternative, especially in Parliament.

Out of interest why do you vote Labour? What do they offer you that the Conservatives do not?

As I have stated, I no longer vote Labour for reasons I have already stated previously and today, they offer nothing as they are now thanks to Blair, no different than than your Tory Party.

Also out of interest, what has the Tories ever offered you to make you vote for them?

-An ethos of smaller state interference.
-Generally giving me more money in my pocket to spend as I wish rather than taking it off me and them deciding how to spend it.
- (Generally) harsher on people who choose to live on benefits as a lifestlye choice (and yes there ARE people like that, just walk down Worsely Hall and you will see many)
- Foreign policy decisions that are more "pro British" (imo) than the Labour party.

That enough?

[SJ]

Tbh in my experience most people's academic ability can be determined at 11.

Wow, what a completely Arrogant and condescending statement to make.

lets ignore pupil maturity, what the current curriculum is
and how grades/ability are determined shall we? all factors that can effect a Students perceived Academic Ability!

I think WG makes a good point. In my case I couldn't spell at age 11 and at 71 I still can't
I assumed from WG's remark that he knew what he was talking about and assumed he must be 12 so I stopped reading further especially when the discourse got on about the "....isms" which in my ignorance have seemed like rubbish to me. But Ay Ho ignorance is bliss

[nellywelly]

Out of interest why do you vote Labour? What do they offer you that the Conservatives do not?

As I have stated, I no longer vote Labour for reasons I have already stated previously and today, they offer nothing as they are now thanks to Blair, no different than than your Tory Party.

Also out of interest, what has the Tories ever offered you to make you vote for them?

-An ethos of smaller state interference.
-Generally giving me more money in my pocket to spend as I wish rather than taking it off me and them deciding how to spend it.
- (Generally) harsher on people who choose to live on benefits as a lifestlye choice (and yes there ARE people like that, just walk down Worsely Hall and you will see many)
- Foreign policy decisions that are more "pro British" (imo) than the Labour party.

That enough?

Fair enough on many of your points the Tory's seem to be the better choice, but it comes at a cost. The rich get by far the most of the savings made by the cuts the Tory's make, also not everyone who is claiming benefits do it out of choice, many people are forced down this road through there being a genuine lack of jobs. The Tory's will never look after the industrial north and make the investment needed also the NHS is not part of there long term plans. They have always wanted it to fail and then it can be slowly privatised. The insurance company's will take most profitable parts and leave the country to run the rest, in other words you will still have to pay national insurance, but have to pay medical insurance to pay for costly operations,treatments etc. The millionaires will pay less tax and protected from any legislation which attempts to stop them from hiding there profits in off shore accounts. The Tory's appeared to be bring in reforms to stop this practice but who pays vast amounts of money into the Tory party and why ,the very people who they say they will force to pay their tax's .Do you really believe this will happen and no matter what they say social justice is not what they want. You do not have to believe me just wait for time to prove me right, after another 10 to 15 years of Tory rule should do it just like the last time they were in for power for this amount of time

[Owd Codger]

The problem for working class people is those of the same class who think they are above being working class.

Get a bit of affluence and they think they are a Tory!

[Wintergreen]

Nellywelly, I sincerely believe and hope that you are wrong. I am a massive fan of One Nation Conservatism and hope that this can deliver over the next decade.

WW- "Class" is an outdated concept imo.

[cpwigan]

In my experience there is no such thing as one nation Conservatism. Wealth and self interest drives the Conservatives. It alweys has and will. Wealth and self interest that ultimately believes that if others suffer so be it, if the environment suffers so be it, if the world suffers so be it. 'Supporters' may well be deluded that they somehow are part of this 'great party' but the reality is anybody is expendable as long as I am okay.
The LibDems got shafted by getting into bed with the Conservatives but in many respects they balanced and/or restrained Conservative self interest. Likewise although no a good enough reason to support remaining within it, so did the EU.
Perhaps we get the politicians we deserve

[DaveO]

Tbh in my experience most people's academic ability can be determined at 11.

Wow, what a completely Arrogant and condescending statement to make.

lets ignore pupil maturity, what the current curriculum is
and how grades/ability are determined shall we? all factors that can effect a Students perceived Academic Ability!

Don't think it's either of them. In my experience the kids in the class that were bright at 11 were also those who were bright at 18. *shrugs*

How do you work out who are the bright kids at 11? By a one off exam as it was with the 11 plus? Think about that for minute. Can't see any problems with that?

Illness on the day of the exam? Issues at home? Wealthier parents paying for "cramming tutors"? Need I go on?

I failed my 11 plus. May parents (not well off) ironically paid for me to sit some more O-levels so I ended up taking about 15 exams (CSE and O levels) as I doubled up. A-levels? Not brilliant. Missed the Uni entrance by a point or two but the Prof who interviewed me wrote to me offering me a place! I didn't even ask having not got the grades.

The strange thing is that was to study Geology. When I arrived in 1977 the Prof told me to take Computer Science as a subsidiary subject (as you did back then). At 18 Computer Science just clicked with me.

Left with a 2:1 in Computer Science in 1981 and have never looked back. So much for your theory of it's all sorted by 11 and now you know why I think selection at 11 is stupid.

[DaveO]

I agree with your point re binmen. Absolutely essential job but surely it's the market that determines wages?

If it is absolutely essential why are they not paid £100K a year?

Socialism doesn't say they should be but it does say they should be rewarded because they put into society by the work they do. So should it be a minimum wage job for example which the market might determine it this point in time?

In terms of wealth, I think you need to re-learn Economics (and I don't mean that in an insulting way). Economics is NOT a zero sum gain as you suggest. Absolutely there are issues with the Capitalist system, but that is not one of them. Are you honestly trying to suggest that the standards of living in 2016 are the same as those in 1960?
On any measure that you care to use the answer surely must be no?

It is a zero sum argument. If 90% of the world's wealth is concentrated within 1% of its population then the other 99% don't have a lot to chew at.

So putting that to one side, your idea of "Socialism" is what? A restriction on pay to close the "gap". Presumably this would extend to Footballers, Cricketers, dare I say RL players? Of course it would have to also cover endorsements, sponsorship or any other "payment in kind".

No.

Or is it a minimum wage to close the gap? Oh hang on we already have one of those. So what? degree? So Socialism vs Capitalism is all about degree is it?

No again. It is very simple, you take out in proportion to what you put in. I contribute to society via the tax I pay. I don't clean the streets or collect the bins but I value the people that do and it is not acceptable in my view they live in poverty just because that is the job they do.

Socialism has failed in the past for many reasons. Jeez half of Eastern Europe couldn't wait to get into the EU to condemn it to the past! You are presumably old enough to remember the power cuts in the 1970's? Imagine that today?!!!

"Good old" British Rail (well it was Old at least I suppose).

Leyland striking at will (whilst those "silly people in Japan" were working hard to develop their industry....now how did that work out for the 2 countries..?

#

What has any of that got to do with socialism?

Or would you prefer the country being held to randsom by the miners? Sensible deals offered being turned down by some idiot TU representative (who was doing very nicely out of his lot thank you very much), while the real people who suffered were those he was supposed to represent?

I thought you liked market forces? If you have a unique skill or a job you can hold your employer to ranson can you not? Tube drivers in London springs to mind.

Explain why anyone with such power should not under your free for all system exert that power and why ultimately its a good thing they do?

[Owd Codger]

Nellywelly, I sincerely believe and hope that you are wrong. I am a massive fan of One Nation Conservatism and hope that this can deliver over the next decade.

WW- "Class" is an outdated concept imo.

But still a fact and now more so!