Sam & Joel, The Video

[Wandering Warrior]

Hard to remember a worse couple of weeks for the club - relegation year? we had a poor team, Hock? Bateman and Mossop incident?

Did this incident and how it was handled figure in Wane's decision to leave?

I think so. And the way it was mishandled too! I think he was very angry that nothing was done at the time it happened.

If that's the case Josie then Wane has gone up in my estimations.

[thegimble]

Time for IL to take charge. Wane has to go why did he announce his leaving at the end of the season and not on the last game. No one needed to know. It looks to me Wane wants to be sacked. He knew we would go downhill once it came out. Always happens.

Wane has allowed mates culture and this is the 2nd incident in 2 years at the club that we know of. People on here went nuts when we got ZH but seems we have our share of idiots as well.

Ironically for me I would not have banned anyone I would have made them work for free for a month at the bar after and before training and then had to play. 4 weeks off playing is a holiday for him.

Should be punished for it. As it stands I think this season is done we might be second but since Wane announced his departure in October on the field we have been a joke.

This season could still be a good one just get rid of Wane and have a new code of conduct not this crap of Wigan Culture that went out in 2013 when senior players left and we got left with SOL and no one to help him. Feel sorry for a quality person like him to have to control idiots with families who should know better.

Time for Rads also to put up or sod off.

[Exiled Wiganer]

From what we have been told (and I am inclined to believe that people tell the truth in public statements), it seems to me that the time line was something like...

Foul and repellant behaviour takes place at end April.
Bar contacts club.
Club and players agree to deal with it by apologies, and possibly (though we don't know this) compensation. Bar owner and bar maid appear to have accepted this.
Now, we have Sam already on his way out, Wane, who as coach is the person in charge of sorting out discipline, on his way out.

The only thing I think the club could have been expected to do at this point, given that we are told the police weren't going to do anything and the bar owner and the barmaid were satisfied, was make it clear to Joel that he was never going to be offered a job at the club (which was discussed when his contract was signed).

We don't know what Rads was told went on, and he is saying that he only saw the video on Saturday. I would be inclined to believe him, and think that he may reasonably have hoped for this to be the end of the matter at the time, as the victims were satisfied. Since it entered the public domain, we seem to have acted promptly and firmly, with potentially more to come. We are employers as well as a sporting team, and will have some constraints as to how far we can go without landing ourselves in trouble.

Finally, this illustrates how one of Wane's greatest strengths - his ability to connect with his players - over time becomes a weakness, through over familiarity, and cliques. We are changing coach not a minute too soon. But, I can't see Wane not giving his all for the club until the last minute he works for us. The last couple of weeks were an inevitible consequence of the disruption from his announcement. I have no doubt that we will buckle down again once we get Thursday out of the way.

[4 Generations]

Must be great being perfect.Never lost ya rag,never been drunk,never woke up and thought,HO S... did i realy.Never swore,fought,nothing at all,just perfect.
The videos a joke,social media allows it to get to 8year olds,whos mothers post on here for the first time to voice how ther child idolises these role models. Thats whats available now to 8yr olds and anyone with a phone.They live on them.Living other peoples lives.Endlessly searching for a life.Worlds mad because of it.Ther is No excuse for the behaviour from either of the brothers.Perhaps they didnt subscribe to Mr Kiplings Warriors/rugby leagues code of coduct.

If—
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Wigan Warrior my Son.

Only sign if you wish to be legally bound
Please sign here ...........

4G

[BriH]

First of all, I've supported Wigan for over 54 years. Second, I've consistently defended "the club" against RU supporters, Leeds fans and Wigan fans on this forum. (You could say I'm ancient and loyal?)

Rugby League is part of who I am: I've argued that it is a community sport that really belongs to the fans, that has values which are long lost by football and other sports. It embodies our tough but honest Northern-ness, hard but fair.

I accept that Joel's attitude and behaviour on this video are not extreme by our society's standards. But they're way out from the standards I (deludedly) have defended and believed in. Yes, Bateman was retained, but after being sanctioned and warned. Same for Hock and others. I can live with that.

What's different here is the unexplained 5 weeks, and the fine and suspension only happening when the video appears on YouTube.

This is not about Joel, it's about the club, and Radlinski in particular. I've used Rads countless times as an example of what's best in RL. How he'd tackle a player into touch and help him up, or check that he was ok. A thoroughly decent bloke, honest as the day is long. Is he really? "Power corrupts.."?

This video, and the club's apparent response, make me question everything I've believed about Wigan, Rugby League, Northern values and the rest. If "the club" continue to look like they are, and have been, covering this up, it'll be the end for me. The only option they have to redeem themselves is for Joel to go.

I started following Wigan in the '50's. Supported Wigan from the '80's.

You have said everything I would have said. These 2 have brought the good name of Wigan RL into disrepute. Unacceptable behaviour by JT in particular. Unacceptable behaviour by anyone.

Also agree with Josie.

Just hope that IL, has owner of the Club, makes a statement defining what standards he expects from all his staff.
Once you lose your good name it's very hard to get it back.

[No straw damn us]

I wonder how much this incident influenced Wanes decision to leave? Didn't one of his daughters manage the Royal Oak in Standishgate which is owned by Tony Callaghan? Is she still there?
Tony himself is a big supporter and sponsor of Wigan.

[Wigan_forever1985]

Must be great being perfect.Never lost ya rag,never been drunk,never woke up and thought,HO S... did i realy.Never swore,fought,nothing at all,just perfect.
The videos a joke,social media allows it to get to 8year olds,whos mothers post on here for the first time to voice how ther child idolises these role models. Thats whats available now to 8yr olds and anyone with a phone.They live on them.Living other peoples lives.Endlessly searching for a life.Worlds mad because of it.Ther is No excuse for the behaviour from either of the brothers.Perhaps they didnt subscribe to Mr Kiplings Warriors/rugby leagues code of coduct.

You cannot compare sportsmen and women to "regular" people - they have to accept that with that big fat pay cheque they get comes a responsibility.

Regardless though - yes ive been drunk and yes i've said things i've regretted, however i can hand on heart 100% say no matter what i have never grabbed or threatened a women, nor have i behaved in a threatening manner toward a women. I've also been kicked out a couple of bars in my day but again i've never refused to leave anywhere when asked.

[Fujiman]

From what we have been told (and I am inclined to believe that people tell the truth in public statements), it seems to me that the time line was something like...

Foul and repellant behaviour takes place at end April.
Bar contacts club.
Club and players agree to deal with it by apologies, and possibly (though we don't know this) compensation. Bar owner and bar maid appear to have accepted this.
Now, we have Sam already on his way out, Wane, who as coach is the person in charge of sorting out discipline, on his way out.

The only thing I think the club could have been expected to do at this point, given that we are told the police weren't going to do anything and the bar owner and the barmaid were satisfied, was make it clear to Joel that he was never going to be offered a job at the club (which was discussed when his contract was signed).

We don't know what Rads was told went on, and he is saying that he only saw the video on Saturday. I would be inclined to believe him, and think that he may reasonably have hoped for this to be the end of the matter at the time, as the victims were satisfied. Since it entered the public domain, we seem to have acted promptly and firmly, with potentially more to come. We are employers as well as a sporting team, and will have some constraints as to how far we can go without landing ourselves in trouble.

Finally, this illustrates how one of Wane's greatest strengths - his ability to connect with his players - over time becomes a weakness, through over familiarity, and cliques. We are changing coach not a minute too soon. But, I can't see Wane not giving his all for the club until the last minute he works for us. The last couple of weeks were an inevitible consequence of the disruption from his announcement. I have no doubt that we will buckle down again once we get Thursday out of the way.

Good post. Echos my thoughts. Just hope Thursday sees a positive reaction otherwise it'll get even more toxic and the club would will well and truly lose the fans.

[DaveO]

We don't know what Rads was told went on, and he is saying that he only saw the video on Saturday. I would be inclined to believe him, and think that he may reasonably have hoped for this to be the end of the matter at the time, as the victims were satisfied. Since it entered the public domain, we seem to have acted promptly and firmly, with potentially more to come. We are employers as well as a sporting team, and will have some constraints as to how far we can go without landing ourselves in trouble.

Nope. What has happened here is the club only decided to fine the players and suspend one of them AFTER the video went public. If the punishment meted out now is appropriate it was appropriate five weeks ago.

At best this is incompetence as it shows the club completely failed to spot the seriousness of the incident when it was reported. For a bar owner, who is also a club sponsor, to go to the lengths of reporting it to the club should have told them this was more than a bit of foul mouthed behaviour. As it is the club now looks like it was trying to hush it up and has only reacted after the video came out. Even if the club has not seen the video previously and is not who has allegedly paid hush money it's resulted in astonishingly bad PR due to a total mishandling of the incident. It's done massive damage to the clubs reputation.

Personally I find it incredibly hard to believe the existence of this video is news to the club. I believe the bar also has CCTV so did no one ask to look at that?

[ian.birchall]

Personally I decided that Sam Tomkins was a berk of the first order when he foamed at the mouth and bad mouthed Bilko.
A cheetah never changes its spots.
(A cheetah has spots, a leopard has flowers and not spots)