Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

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DaveO
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by DaveO » Wed May 08, 2019 11:23 am

ian.birchall wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:40 pm

When I see the headline Kiwi Prop I expect to see the signing of a current international player. Fake news again following on from all the fake excitement about signing an aussi scrum half when it turned out to be a released Championship Bronco.
Agreed. Clickbait headline.

SJ
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by SJ » Wed May 08, 2019 11:38 am

DaveO wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:17 am
[quote=EagleEyePie post_id=460746 time=<a href="tel:1557251738">1557251738</a> user_id=8822]
Can't say I'm surprised that people are complaining about this. It's par for the course these days that everything has to be met with talk of how terrible things are at the home of the reigning Champions.

Has anyone looked at the off contract list recently? There's barely any talent to be found in there, particularly in the front row, but Mitch Clark does seem like a decent player and Cas fans seem to rate him very highly, which is promising because they have some bloody good forwards in their side.

No, he isn't a Liam Watts, Chris Hill, Luke Thompson etc, although there was a time when the likes of Watts and Hill weren't at the level they are now. Good players don't just suddenly exist so sometimes you've got to be smart and work out which ones are just starting to reach their peak and could become top signings.

Most top class forwards are under contract. The club doesn't seem to be in the position to pay out transfer fees. That leaves us in the same position as a lot of other clubs in fighting to find the best that's out there. Clark could well fit that category.

I agree with Exiled Wiganer, it's hard to get a sense of how good the recruitment will be until it's all done. What we're lacking at the moment is a top quality prop and depth in the front and back row. If the club just signs one big name forward they haven't solved the lack of depth. The club should be looking at several different players and Clark's name is hopefully just one of several targets.

Besides, for those wanting us to sign players from the NRL - just look how Frank-Paul Nu'uausala turned out. Or Roy Asotasi. Or Keith Galloway. Ashton Sims. Anthony Laffranchi. Luke Douglas. Those were not top class Super League props by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd say the best Super League props tend to be the home grown ones, with a few exceptions.
You do realise the above is a damning indictment of the clubs ability to recruit top players? It's just a long list of excuses.

We are supposed to have this great production line of players which ought to mean players we sign from outside are a cut above. Not average joes. When we are reduced to trading players within superleague or recruiting championship players we are headed for mid table mediocrity. This is what mid table sides do.

This isn't to say there aren't some good players in SL but we are not prising the best of them away from their clubs are we? Wire are doing to us recruitment wise what we used to do to them in years gone by, securing players like Widdop.

We also have developed a habit of only spotting players after they have been recruited by other teams. We started this with Green, looks like we will do the same with Hastings and now this player. When are we going to find our own? Do we actually have any scouts worth the name or contacts down under?

As to players not alway making it, well that has applied to plenty of recruits we have made from within SL. We have had a bit of habit of recruiting players who have played well against us in a game and then they have been poor e.g. Tauati. I can't believe you even mentioned FPN. He played exactly how Wane wanted him to play and that wasn't to his strengths. Why we recruited him given Wane's style of forward play I will never know.
[/quote]

Good posts from Dave and his interlocutor
It does seem the club has little or no ambition like Mo

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EagleEyePie
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by EagleEyePie » Wed May 08, 2019 6:57 pm

DaveO wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:17 am
You do realise the above is a damning indictment of the clubs ability to recruit top players? It's just a long list of excuses.

We are supposed to have this great production line of players which ought to mean players we sign from outside are a cut above. Not average joes. When we are reduced to trading players within superleague or recruiting championship players we are headed for mid table mediocrity. This is what mid table sides do.

This isn't to say there aren't some good players in SL but we are not prising the best of them away from their clubs are we? Wire are doing to us recruitment wise what we used to do to them in years gone by, securing players like Widdop.

We also have developed a habit of only spotting players after they have been recruited by other teams. We started this with Green, looks like we will do the same with Hastings and now this player. When are we going to find our own? Do we actually have any scouts worth the name or contacts down under?

As to players not alway making it, well that has applied to plenty of recruits we have made from within SL. We have had a bit of habit of recruiting players who have played well against us in a game and then they have been poor e.g. Tauati. I can't believe you even mentioned FPN. He played exactly how Wane wanted him to play and that wasn't to his strengths. Why we recruited him given Wane's style of forward play I will never know.
I'm not sure why you have an issue with clubs trading players within Super League. All clubs do it. You mention Wire, but their best prop forward came from the Championship. They have Jack Hughes who was traded within Super League. Same for Lama Tasi, Tom Lineham, Ryan Atkins, Ben Murdoch-Masila, Jake Mamo, Matt Davis. That's where most signings come from is it not?

And if we do manage to sign Hastings that would also be us signing a top player wouldn't it? You criticise the club for spotting players who have already been recruited by other teams but if we were the ones signing relative unknowns you'd be among the first to criticise! Who had heard of Blake Green before he signed for Hull KR? Had he signed for us back then instead of Rovers there'd be an absolute meltdown on here about how far the club had fallen :roll: Instead what we did was sign a good player from a Super League rival because we had the pulling power to do so. Green still wasn't really considered a big name when we signed him but he turned out to be the best halfback we've had in years.

Cas want to keep Clark. If we manage to sign him away from them then it shows we still have some pulling power over our rivals (which Cas definitely are, having been among the top clubs for a few years now).

Using Wire as an example of what we should be aspiring to seems to dismiss some of the other signings they've made. In recent years they've signed Tyrone Roberts (he came with a reasonable reputation), Mitch Brown, Bodene Thompson, Dom Crosby, Ben Pomeroy, Luis Johnson, Andre Savelio, Benjamin Julien, Joe Westerman, re-signed Matty Blythe and Kevin Penny. Need I go on? You could probably find a similar number of duds signing for Saints too.

I would hope the club is looking for top players and still trying to sign the best available, but to be honest I wouldn't say our transfer dealings have been massively worse when compared to other clubs. The club has almost certainly hampered itself by keeping hold of too many players who aren't really good enough and ending up without enough room to manoeuvre under the cap but we've (hopefully) barely touched the surface when it comes to signings and departures this year so I don't see why signing a highly rated Super League prop forward is cause for concern or outrage at this stage.

Wes
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Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by Wes » Wed May 08, 2019 7:51 pm

Don’t let all that stop Dave bending a narrative to suit, it’s his speciality.

Great post btw eagle eye.


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DaveO
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by DaveO » Wed May 08, 2019 9:20 pm

Wes wrote:Don’t let all that stop Dave bending a narrative to suit, it’s his speciality.

Great post btw eagle eye.


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Your snide remark adds nothing to the debate.

DaveO
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by DaveO » Wed May 08, 2019 9:38 pm

EagleEyePie wrote:
DaveO wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:17 am
You do realise the above is a damning indictment of the clubs ability to recruit top players? It's just a long list of excuses.

We are supposed to have this great production line of players which ought to mean players we sign from outside are a cut above. Not average joes. When we are reduced to trading players within superleague or recruiting championship players we are headed for mid table mediocrity. This is what mid table sides do.

This isn't to say there aren't some good players in SL but we are not prising the best of them away from their clubs are we? Wire are doing to us recruitment wise what we used to do to them in years gone by, securing players like Widdop.

We also have developed a habit of only spotting players after they have been recruited by other teams. We started this with Green, looks like we will do the same with Hastings and now this player. When are we going to find our own? Do we actually have any scouts worth the name or contacts down under?

As to players not alway making it, well that has applied to plenty of recruits we have made from within SL. We have had a bit of habit of recruiting players who have played well against us in a game and then they have been poor e.g. Tauati. I can't believe you even mentioned FPN. He played exactly how Wane wanted him to play and that wasn't to his strengths. Why we recruited him given Wane's style of forward play I will never know.
I'm not sure why you have an issue with clubs trading players within Super League. All clubs do it. You mention Wire, but their best prop forward came from the Championship. They have Jack Hughes who was traded within Super League. Same for Lama Tasi, Tom Lineham, Ryan Atkins, Ben Murdoch-Masila, Jake Mamo, Matt Davis. That's where most signings come from is it not?

And if we do manage to sign Hastings that would also be us signing a top player wouldn't it? You criticise the club for spotting players who have already been recruited by other teams but if we were the ones signing relative unknowns you'd be among the first to criticise! Who had heard of Blake Green before he signed for Hull KR? Had he signed for us back then instead of Rovers there'd be an absolute meltdown on here about how far the club had fallen :roll: Instead what we did was sign a good player from a Super League rival because we had the pulling power to do so. Green still wasn't really considered a big name when we signed him but he turned out to be the best halfback we've had in years.

Cas want to keep Clark. If we manage to sign him away from them then it shows we still have some pulling power over our rivals (which Cas definitely are, having been among the top clubs for a few years now).

Using Wire as an example of what we should be aspiring to seems to dismiss some of the other signings they've made. In recent years they've signed Tyrone Roberts (he came with a reasonable reputation), Mitch Brown, Bodene Thompson, Dom Crosby, Ben Pomeroy, Luis Johnson, Andre Savelio, Benjamin Julien, Joe Westerman, re-signed Matty Blythe and Kevin Penny. Need I go on? You could probably find a similar number of duds signing for Saints too.

I would hope the club is looking for top players and still trying to sign the best available, but to be honest I wouldn't say our transfer dealings have been massively worse when compared to other clubs. The club has almost certainly hampered itself by keeping hold of too many players who aren't really good enough and ending up without enough room to manoeuvre under the cap but we've (hopefully) barely touched the surface when it comes to signings and departures this year so I don't see why signing a highly rated Super League prop forward is cause for concern or outrage at this stage.
I agree with the notion the club is holding onto too many players but that is a different issue even if it does hold us back.

My point is really very simple. We are starting to do what clubs like Wakey, Cas and Salford used to do. It’s basically swap players. The players we sign from other clubs are not their top players. Such as Tauati and Isa. The next raft are championship players like Summat, Hankinson and Bullock. Not good enough.

I don’t give a monkeys if Wire have signed good players off other SL sides. We aren’t doing that unless we can find a player like Green who someone else spotted first and there is an opportunity to sign them. If Saints had spotted Hastings not Salford we’d never get a sniff.

The club needs to pull its finger out and start finding the Carmont Mk 2’s. It also needs signings to put bums on seats not players who only nerds think is a decent signing.



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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by Wigan_forever1985 » Thu May 09, 2019 8:32 am

Using Wire as an example of what we should be aspiring to seems to dismiss some of the other signings they've made. In recent years they've signed Tyrone Roberts (he came with a reasonable reputation), Mitch Brown, Bodene Thompson, Dom Crosby, Ben Pomeroy, Luis Johnson, Andre Savelio, Benjamin Julien, Joe Westerman, re-signed Matty Blythe and Kevin Penny. Need I go on? You could probably find a similar number of duds signing for Saints too.
I take the point however youre missing the fact that these werent Wire's major signings youre missing the likes of Sandow and King off that list

Plus even the players you mention Roberts was meant to be better than he ended up being (a risk that you get a dud but they still went for it), Savelio's stock high been very high in the past and Westerman at the time he went to Wire was seen as the next big thing.

Wires major issue in the past is they havent complimented their star signings with bringing their youth through.

The magic recipe has always been produce good homegrown players, have some seasoned good players and a couple a magic star players - in the right positions.

I think the issue with Wigans recruitment is not just the standard of recruitment but the lack of overall vision in the recruitment.
Always be yourself - unless you can be Dan Bilzerian then ALWAYS be Dan Bilzerian!

SJ
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by SJ » Thu May 09, 2019 11:14 am

The recent Dialog between Dave O, Eagle Eye, WF1985 for me has been the most interesting I've read in some time (even the Wes interjection I found amusing. Don't think Wes was being snide Dave. Just a little develment left over from the Brexit saga. He's a good lad really.
Good debate tho'. More of the same !👍

Exiled Wiganer
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 202

Post by Exiled Wiganer » Thu May 09, 2019 1:51 pm

Our signings (and ability to develop our own) have been demonstrably good, as we have won plenty of Grand Finals in the last decade. Signing Bateman, say, was a stroke of genius. If we sign Clark as a replacement for either Hamlin or Tautai, we will have traded up. Smithies, Smith and Partington all look to be the sorts of talents we can sit back and enjoy for years to come, so once again our home grown production line is working well.

Going forward, though, we desperately need a massive signing this year. The last time we tried it, we ended up paying a fortune and 3 years for perhaps one season of decent performances from Tomkins, but I felt that was a risk worth taking at the time. It annoys me that the club will try to make a big thing of re-signing Budgie, given that we took him in when he was dropped by the NRL and got him fit again after his bad injury. Frankly, he should be saying how grateful he is to have stuck by him. His re-signing really means that, in that respect, we aren’t going backwards from our position as an unexciting team. Not going backwards is hardly going to drag in the non committed.

We have 2 marquee places and are not even using one of those this year (though maybe we can’t because of money spent on non marquee players?). If Williams is being paid a fortune, and we can replace him with Hastings, that feels like a slight trade up, but to my mind we need a lot more than that to enthuse us. Burgess is exactly the sort of name I would like to see. We need to be seen to be shopping at Harrods, not Lidl.

moto748
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Re: Wigan Warriors target New Zealand prop for 2020

Post by moto748 » Thu May 09, 2019 2:39 pm

DaveO wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 9:20 pm


Your snide remark adds nothing to the debate.

But it has the advantage of brevity. ;)

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