Where did it go wrong?

[Barney841]

I don’t think our recruitment has been bad, bar not sorting the front row out but we got a dud in burgess which was unfortunate, but it could of been better with the calibre of player we brought in.
Our problem has been with the the players we have retained instead of moving on and bad coaching.
We’ve got some good players and should be getting more out of them

[southportcdm]

Irrespective of any deficiencies in recruitment (there have been some) and bad luck with injuries, we have to ask: does the team look like it's well organised with clear plans/structures and how many of the players have improved during Lammy's tenure? My answers would be no and I can't think of any.

[Charriots Offiah]

Mac left before 2019. The list I produced was not mine it was published by the RL, you can pick it apart if you like but a story needs to start somewhere. The point I am making and the point I started with was that I had rubbished Rads recruitment against that of Rush and I was wrong to do so as it was in no way inferior. People will have views as to why it happened and the intention of the post was to draw out opinions.

My view is clear, we have not got the best out of our squad whereas Saints have exceeded expectations.

If this was a list PUBLISHED by the RL, as you say, you MUST post the link you got it from! COPYRIGHT !!

Josie, thank you. I found the information on several sites so I decided not to post a link but I fully accept your point.

[JimmyMagnets]

Our main problem has been our coaching. Simply not good enough! A decent coach and things would be different . Fact![emoji57]

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[JimmyMagnets]

Irrespective of any deficiencies in recruitment (there have been some) and bad luck with injuries, we have to ask: does the team look like it's well organised with clear plans/structures and how many of the players have improved during Lammy's tenure? My answers would be no and I can't think of any.

Spot on

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[CheshireWarrior]

The departures v signings might be factual, but it doesn't paint a clear picture for me.
If we look at the quality of players listed, the gulf in class isn't that far apart.

Specifically regarding this season, injuries have decimated us. As I said before if we had French, Field and Hastings established, all season at 1, 6 and 7, would our standing be different?

I think Lam has needed to be bold and brave at times playing players out of position (some successfully and some not so).

[DaveO]

In 2018 we were top dogs, Saints have now taken over our position. On another topic I stated that Rads was being outdone by Rush when it came to recruitment, a comment made in the heat of the moment without proper investigation. I thought it only fair to look and present the facts.

Wigan

2019 - French, Hardaker, Sammut and Bullock.

2020 - Hastings, Bibby, G. Burgess; Clark, Pierce Paul.

2021 - Bateman, Field.

Saints

2019 - Batchelor, Naiqama, Paulo, Coote.

2020 - None.

2021 - Thompson, Paasi, Matautia, Norman.

On reflection, I was too hard on Rads and therefore I apologise. Wigan's recruitment has been every bit as good if not better than Saints.

This still doesn't explain our demise so it is worth looking at the players that have left both clubs over the past three seasons

Wigan

2019 - Bateman, Sutton, S. Tomkins, Woods.

2020 - Sarginson, Davies, Kibula, C. Field, Sammut, Williams

2021 - Escare, J. Burgess, Wells, Rushton, Mullen, Flower, Wilde, Roberts, Barren, Holcroft, O'Loughlin.

Saints

2019 - Wilkin, M. Smith, Barba, Morgan.

2020 - Richardson, Swift.

2021 - Paulo, Peyroux, Ashworth, Hazzard, Sharratt, Graham.

My view is that Wigan have lost more quality and influential players than Saints (and not replaced them) and we are still playing catch up (we need to make sure that we retain our top class young players). Added to this Saints have had a better coach at the helm for the past three seasons.

I believe that time will be the great leveller, our young players will develop both physically and from a rugby perspective. The issue regarding the coach should be resolved in 2022. Rugby success comes in cycles and if the management can integrate some experienced and quality players with our young guns then we will start to collect trophies on a regular basis.

Any further views?

p.s. if the above lists are incorrect please amend.

Well I think the obvious thing to point out is what Saints have done or not done on the recruitment/retention front is completely irrelevant.

They didn’t decided to get rid of their best hooker for example. (Micky Mac is absent from your list). Wigan did and whether any other club was daft enough to do the same (which none were as far as I know) does not excuse Wigan doing it.

The fact Wigan failed to plan for Lockers retirement is Wigan’s fault alone.

I also think you are clutching at straws with some of the names mentioned e.g. Summat. He’s mentioned as a recruit and then as a leaver. Given he was rubbish was his recruitment supposed to be an example of a poor recruitment or his exit an example of getting rid of a poor player? There are also some players mentioned who never figured much for Wigan such as Kibula. Again not sure if him being let go is supposed to be good or bad policy but whatever it was, given he played a handful of games I am not sure of the relevance.

In any case the issue is not just who left but who was retained with players like Clubb, TL and even Lockers playing too long. We look to be retaining Powell and not taking the opportunity of his contract ending to improve at no 9.

The point is it’s not a simple numbers game where because Wigan lost or recruited X number of players and this is comparable in numbers to some other team then the situations are comparable. They clearly aren’t because it’s obvious our squad has issues such as to many young forwards, too many past it players etc ,that are discussed nearly every day on here.

Mac left before 2019. The list I produced was not mine it was published by the RL, you can pick it apart if you like but a story needs to start somewhere. The point I am making and the point I started with was that I had rubbished Rads recruitment against that of Rush and I was wrong to do so as it was in no way inferior. People will have views as to why it happened and the intention of the post was to draw out opinions.

My view is clear, we have not got the best out of our squad whereas Saints have exceeded expectations.

The fact Mac left before 2019 is very convenient isn’t it!

That doesn’t mean it isn’t another example of the current administration shipping out quality. He’s still playing very well for Les Cats and not us.

But leats cut to the chase. You state Wigan’s recruitment has been every bit as good as, if not better than Saints.

I will say again, what Saints do is irrelevant. I don’t care if they recruit a pile of crap. I want to see Wigan make the correct decisions on recruits and retention and you have to be deluded to think Wigan have been doing a good job here.

We don’t even know if Field will be any good yet. G Burgess was a disaster. Bibby is average, Bullock and Clark are being let go. Hastings is leaving and no sign of an equal quality replacement.

Hardaker is rumoured to want to leave and the club apparently will let him and given he was Sam T’s replacement and is currently pretending to be a centre because we have none just WTF is going on?

We are going backwards. Quality leaves, its not replaced and we are linked with dross.

[Wintergreen]

Well I think the obvious thing to point out is what Saints have done or not done on the recruitment/retention front is completely irrelevant.

They didn’t decided to get rid of their best hooker for example. (Micky Mac is absent from your list). Wigan did and whether any other club was daft enough to do the same (which none were as far as I know) does not excuse Wigan doing it.

The fact Wigan failed to plan for Lockers retirement is Wigan’s fault alone.

I also think you are clutching at straws with some of the names mentioned e.g. Summat. He’s mentioned as a recruit and then as a leaver. Given he was rubbish was his recruitment supposed to be an example of a poor recruitment or his exit an example of getting rid of a poor player? There are also some players mentioned who never figured much for Wigan such as Kibula. Again not sure if him being let go is supposed to be good or bad policy but whatever it was, given he played a handful of games I am not sure of the relevance.

In any case the issue is not just who left but who was retained with players like Clubb, TL and even Lockers playing too long. We look to be retaining Powell and not taking the opportunity of his contract ending to improve at no 9.

The point is it’s not a simple numbers game where because Wigan lost or recruited X number of players and this is comparable in numbers to some other team then the situations are comparable. They clearly aren’t because it’s obvious our squad has issues such as to many young forwards, too many past it players etc ,that are discussed nearly every day on here.

Mac left before 2019. The list I produced was not mine it was published by the RL, you can pick it apart if you like but a story needs to start somewhere. The point I am making and the point I started with was that I had rubbished Rads recruitment against that of Rush and I was wrong to do so as it was in no way inferior. People will have views as to why it happened and the intention of the post was to draw out opinions.

My view is clear, we have not got the best out of our squad whereas Saints have exceeded expectations.

The fact Mac left before 2019 is very convenient isn’t it!

That doesn’t mean it isn’t another example of the current administration shipping out quality. He’s still playing very well for Les Cats and not us.

But leats cut to the chase. You state Wigan’s recruitment has been every bit as good as, if not better than Saints.

I will say again, what Saints do is irrelevant. I don’t care if they recruit a pile of crap. I want to see Wigan make the correct decisions on recruits and retention and you have to be deluded to think Wigan have been doing a good job here.

We don’t even know if Field will be any good yet. G Burgess was a disaster. Bibby is average, Bullock and Clark are being let go. Hastings is leaving and no sign of an equal quality replacement.

Hardaker is rumoured to want to leave and the club apparently will let him and given he was Sam T’s replacement and is currently pretending to be a centre because we have none just WTF is going on?

We are going backwards. Quality leaves, its not replaced and we are linked with dross.

Very difficult to argue with that.

[Charriots Offiah]

Well I think the obvious thing to point out is what Saints have done or not done on the recruitment/retention front is completely irrelevant.

They didn’t decided to get rid of their best hooker for example. (Micky Mac is absent from your list). Wigan did and whether any other club was daft enough to do the same (which none were as far as I know) does not excuse Wigan doing it.

The fact Wigan failed to plan for Lockers retirement is Wigan’s fault alone.

I also think you are clutching at straws with some of the names mentioned e.g. Summat. He’s mentioned as a recruit and then as a leaver. Given he was rubbish was his recruitment supposed to be an example of a poor recruitment or his exit an example of getting rid of a poor player? There are also some players mentioned who never figured much for Wigan such as Kibula. Again not sure if him being let go is supposed to be good or bad policy but whatever it was, given he played a handful of games I am not sure of the relevance.

In any case the issue is not just who left but who was retained with players like Clubb, TL and even Lockers playing too long. We look to be retaining Powell and not taking the opportunity of his contract ending to improve at no 9.

The point is it’s not a simple numbers game where because Wigan lost or recruited X number of players and this is comparable in numbers to some other team then the situations are comparable. They clearly aren’t because it’s obvious our squad has issues such as to many young forwards, too many past it players etc ,that are discussed nearly every day on here.

Mac left before 2019. The list I produced was not mine it was published by the RL, you can pick it apart if you like but a story needs to start somewhere. The point I am making and the point I started with was that I had rubbished Rads recruitment against that of Rush and I was wrong to do so as it was in no way inferior. People will have views as to why it happened and the intention of the post was to draw out opinions.

My view is clear, we have not got the best out of our squad whereas Saints have exceeded expectations.

The fact Mac left before 2019 is very convenient isn’t it!

That doesn’t mean it isn’t another example of the current administration shipping out quality. He’s still playing very well for Les Cats and not us.

But leats cut to the chase. You state Wigan’s recruitment has been every bit as good as, if not better than Saints.

I will say again, what Saints do is irrelevant. I don’t care if they recruit a pile of crap. I want to see Wigan make the correct decisions on recruits and retention and you have to be deluded to think Wigan have been doing a good job here.

We don’t even know if Field will be any good yet. G Burgess was a disaster. Bibby is average, Bullock and Clark are being let go. Hastings is leaving and no sign of an equal quality replacement.

Hardaker is rumoured to want to leave and the club apparently will let him and given he was Sam T’s replacement and is currently pretending to be a centre because we have none just WTF is going on?

We are going backwards. Quality leaves, its not replaced and we are linked with dross.

Go on then Dave, who should go and who should we replace them with?