Six again

[Mike]

I also wonder if this "we are dominating games" thing is slightly off the mark. I can't remember a game this season when we have dominated territory. We usually absorb pressure and then hit back from pretty deep. Our team is as dangerous in our own half as we are from in the oppositions, and I think (except from scrums) probably most dangerous from around 40m out. I think we struggle a little when in the oppositions 20 as there's less room.

Does anyone have the stats on time in oppositions half for us and the rest of the league. I doubt we'd be in the top half of that.

[NICKYKISS]

I do agree that we've not always been dominant this season but even games where we have been, such as Hull away or Salford or Huddersfield at home, we've still comfortably lost the penalty count. We put 40 odd on Huddersfield and they didn't give away a single penalty. We made over 700 metres more than Salford in that game and they gave away 3 penalties (They gave away 12 at Saints on opening night and have been the most penalised side in the league). I think the best we've played was Hull FC away and they gave away 3. Leigh and Leeds were penalised once each against us. They would be games were we weren't dominant but still, those numbers are usually as rare as rocking horse droppings.

Have we always been dominant? No but have we been dominated in many/any games? Not really I'd say. Saints certainly aren't dominant in games every week either but they've had 44 penalties to our 18. It just doesn't stack up but I think it's many factors that are playing in to it.

[archiekeith]

Just a wee look at the subject from a different viewpoint, if I may?

Of themselves, stats prove nothing: they give some evidence from which we may try to deduce something. As often as not, people use stats to try to "prove" something they believed to be true before they saw the data - I think it's called "a priori" reasoning.

Anyway, on a simple basis that Wigan are awarded less penalties and concede less penalties than others, I could argue that we play to the rules more, and as a consequence other teams are less provoked into conceding penalties when they play us.

Before anyone assumes I believe this, I'll add another possibility: maybe the "tea ladies" at Wigan are so nice to visiting refs, and give them extra biscuits with their lovely cuppas, that the refs at our games are in a much kinder frame of mind???

[Flash]

Just a wee look at the subject from a different viewpoint, if I may?

Of themselves, stats prove nothing: they give some evidence from which we may try to deduce something. As often as not, people use stats to try to "prove" something they believed to be true before they saw the data - I think it's called "a priori" reasoning.

Anyway, on a simple basis that Wigan are awarded less penalties and concede less penalties than others, I could argue that we play to the rules more, and as a consequence other teams are less provoked into conceding penalties when they play us.

Before anyone assumes I believe this, I'll add another possibility: maybe the "tea ladies" at Wigan are so nice to visiting refs, and give them extra biscuits with their lovely cuppas, that the refs at our games are in a much kinder frame of mind???

I know you state that you don't actually believe this but I'll answer anyway Morley.

This doesn't follow as it makes the assumption that all (or most) penalties are provoked. Of course, this isn't the case. No one 'provoked' Faz to be offside the other day for example. He just failed to get back in line despite all the other players managing it. It had little or nothing to do with the other team.

Even if you argue that the other team has an influence by getting quick Play the balls, or whatever, that insinuates that Wigan don't. As we know, that's not the case. Wigan are as fast, and in most cases faster, than other teams both in terms of speed of play the ball and in general play.

Wigan do everything that other teams do. Most of the time they do it faster and with more intensity than other teams. That should lead to more penalties received, not fewer.

[morley pie eater]

Just a wee look at the subject from a different viewpoint, if I may?

Of themselves, stats prove nothing: they give some evidence from which we may try to deduce something. As often as not, people use stats to try to "prove" something they believed to be true before they saw the data - I think it's called "a priori" reasoning.

Anyway, on a simple basis that Wigan are awarded less penalties and concede less penalties than others, I could argue that we play to the rules more, and as a consequence other teams are less provoked into conceding penalties when they play us.

Before anyone assumes I believe this, I'll add another possibility: maybe the "tea ladies" at Wigan are so nice to visiting refs, and give them extra biscuits with their lovely cuppas, that the refs at our games are in a much kinder frame of mind???

I know you state that you don't actually believe this but I'll answer anyway Morley.

This doesn't follow as it makes the assumption that all (or most) penalties are provoked. Of course, this isn't the case. No one 'provoked' Faz to be offside the other day for example. He just failed to get back in line despite all the other players managing it. It had little or nothing to do with the other team.

Even if you argue that the other team has an influence by getting quick Play the balls, or whatever, that insinuates that Wigan don't. As we know, that's not the case. Wigan are as fast, and in most cases faster, than other teams both in terms of speed of play the ball and in general play.

Wigan do everything that other teams do. Most of the time they do it faster and with more intensity than other teams. That should lead to more penalties received, not fewer.

Yes, I guess what I said in terms of provoking penalties applies to foul play rather than the more technical infringements, such as incorrect play-the-ball or whatever.

As you said, my main point is that any conclusion based on stats is still open to different interpretations. Another factor is that we're only a few games into the season, and stats tend to even up over a longer run. The gambler who wins £50 on a slot machine one night isn't necessarily successful - check out how much he loses over a month or a year.

[NICKYKISS]

Hull FC receiving 49 penalties to our 18 isn't something likely to even up IMO. That gap is not just a case of coincidence, it's a product of teams being refereed differently against them to us, for whatever reasons (and I think it's a whole host of them).

Hull FC's last opponent was the one we played the week before them in HKR. HKR gave away 3 penalties in a 16 point defeat against Wigan and 10 penalties in a 14 point win against FC. If teams are busting more tackles, making more ground and making more breaks, you would expect they'd have a defence back peddling and looking to slow the game down and that would lead to more penalties but the stats below show we had HKR in a far more difficult position but that was clearly anything but the case.

Hull FC vs HKR

Metres-1171m
Tackle Busts-26
Clean breaks-4

Wigan vs HKR

Metres-1576
Tackle Busts-55
Clean breaks-5

[archiekeith]

Just a wee look at the subject from a different viewpoint, if I may?

Of themselves, stats prove nothing: they give some evidence from which we may try to deduce something. As often as not, people use stats to try to "prove" something they believed to be true before they saw the data - I think it's called "a priori" reasoning.

Anyway, on a simple basis that Wigan are awarded less penalties and concede less penalties than others, I could argue that we play to the rules more, and as a consequence other teams are less provoked into conceding penalties when they play us.

Before anyone assumes I believe this, I'll add another possibility: maybe the "tea ladies" at Wigan are so nice to visiting refs, and give them extra biscuits with their lovely cuppas, that the refs at our games are in a much kinder frame of mind???

I know you state that you don't actually believe this but I'll answer anyway Morley.

This doesn't follow as it makes the assumption that all (or most) penalties are provoked. Of course, this isn't the case. No one 'provoked' Faz
[/

Agreed But the referee was provoked
To award a penalty. So all penalties are provoked in bring ing about the ref awarding the penalty ( provoke being a transitive verb).

[Flash]

Just a wee look at the subject from a different viewpoint, if I may?

Of themselves, stats prove nothing: they give some evidence from which we may try to deduce something. As often as not, people use stats to try to "prove" something they believed to be true before they saw the data - I think it's called "a priori" reasoning.

Anyway, on a simple basis that Wigan are awarded less penalties and concede less penalties than others, I could argue that we play to the rules more, and as a consequence other teams are less provoked into conceding penalties when they play us.

Before anyone assumes I believe this, I'll add another possibility: maybe the "tea ladies" at Wigan are so nice to visiting refs, and give them extra biscuits with their lovely cuppas, that the refs at our games are in a much kinder frame of mind???

I know you state that you don't actually believe this but I'll answer anyway Morley.

This doesn't follow as it makes the assumption that all (or most) penalties are provoked. Of course, this isn't the case. No one 'provoked' Faz

Agreed But the referee was provoked
To award a penalty. So all penalties are provoked in bring ing about the ref awarding the penalty ( provoke being a transitive verb).

I was rebutting the inference that the opposition was being provoked less, not that penalties were provoked per se. Therefore your point is moot, Archie

[archiekeith]

No it's not flash. I'm referring to your "moot" conclusion. The topic under discussion concerns " penalties " The Referee's decision was provoked by the infringement of the rules of the game. Silmple! Anyway I've spouted enough and to be honest with you the only static ( the final score is the only one that interests me.We have a good team and coaches so I'm going to finish my not very moot (I hope ) assertion Cheers!

[josie andrews]

The astonishing Wigan Warriors anomaly that simply makes no sense

It goes against all logic!

There is a peculiar disciplinary quirk taking place in Super League at the minute, and Wigan Warriors are at the centre of it.

The champions, perhaps unsurprisingly, are the team to have conceded the fewest penalties in Super League so far this season, giving away just 31 during the opening eight games of the season.

Yet incredibly, despite that impressive record, they have also received the fewest numbers of penalties, and by quite a considerable distance. After eight rounds Wigan have only received 24 penalties, at an average of three a match, and that's considerably lower than anyone else. Castleford are 11th with 31, while at the top of the charts Catalans and Hull FC lead the way with 49, meaning they have been awarded more than double the amount of penalties as Wigan so far this year.

Wigan being bottom goes against everything data tells us should happen. Teams at the top of the league tend to have more possession and therefore usually earn more penalties. It's no surprise that Huddersfield and Castleford then are the next two teams at the bottom of the penalties received chart.

PENALTIES RECEIVED SO FAR: Catalans & Hull FC (49), St Helens & Warrington (47), Hull KR (44), Leeds (43), Leigh (42), Salford (40), Wakefield (38), Huddersfield (33), Castleford (31), Wigan (24).

It comes to light after Matt Peet pointed out his side didn't receive a single six again during their win over St Helens and the same happened during their opening round defeat to Leigh Leopards.

Peet was diplomatic when questioned on the matter by All Out Rugby League, but admitted the stats didn't stack up with normal rugby league logic.

"Firstly, I'll say we try and control the controllables," Peet said. "The numbers speak for themselves, we've done deep dives into it, had some conversations with Phil (Bentham) and his team and know they have a massive challenge.

"But we've had 24 penalties this season. The numbers speak for themselves, not just this season but we look over the last five seasons and it's very low. We don't go onto the field looking to win penalties, we go to trouble the opposition and I think our attack is decent.

"We've got to try and keep doing the right thing, we don't want to become a team that appeals a lot, it can be a poor reflection, but I'm probably asking the same questions as you. I understand the refs have a lot to contend with, but you've got the numbers there."

Asked if he or Bentham had been able to draw conclusions on the figures, Peet said: "I'm happy with the conversations I've had with Phil. I don't want to disclose it as I don't think it's fair but I'm comfortable with the job that's being done and the feedback we've been provided with.

"We're trying to constantly improve our own discipline. We gave away a few penalties away at the weekend where we were poor. But I don't see a massive difference in things sometimes. I'll leave that, but we're trying to look at ourselves as best we can. These things tend to sort themselves out as the season goes on but in the history of Super League, or in the last five years, we're well under on penalties awarded."

Peet added: "The data tells us across Super League, NRL and rugby union that the teams higher end of the table tend to have more ball, more attacking positions and therefore win penalties. Maybe it's just an anomaly."

https://www.alloutrugbyleague.co.uk/new ... ly-1111644