Same 18 Again!!!!

[Wigan sister]

I definitely think we need to start with Ashton. I felt he would've been there in support on the few occasions we made a half break against saints. It was noticeable that those looking round to pass when the pass was on had no option but to take the tackle. Lets hope for an improvement tonight!

[jinkin jimmy]

pie eaters posted:
Out of the 17 we have every week i dont see any problems. McClorum is a decent player but simply not good enough to play at this level yet. Whats the point what is he going to do differently then the players we have?

Well I do. DaveO is correct, we should look to other options than Millard. I would go further too. If Withers is preferred over Ashton (a mistake IMO) then the other should not make the bench. We need as much forward power on the bench as possible and we do not have much in reserve. Just look at our bench compared to Saints.

For tonight's game I would have gone with Hansen, O'Carroll, Prescott and Hill as our bench with Higham trying to go the full 80. The fact that Millard gets more game time than him is disgraceful. I must admit too that I am getting fed up with Fletch and might be tempted to drop him and move Bailey up, thereby removing the problem of choosing Ashton over Withers and vice versa.

[DaveO]

pieater-alex posted:
Well I don't think Noble has enough options to replace Millard if we did want to drop him. I mean McIlorum hasn't played a single game in super league and is only 18 years of age and to play him against Leeds when the team hasn't been performing well is a risk Noble is not going to take.

Clearly not but he is making a mistake sticking with a poor player, whuich he said he would not do. If Millard offered anything to the side we would not be having this discussion but despite McIllorum's lack of experience giving him 20 mins with having Higham do the other 60 has got to be better for Wigan than bringing Millard on at all.

Have you not noticed how poor we are when Millard comes on? The fact McIllorum is only 18 and this is Leeds is not a problem to me because I firmly believe including this particular inexperienced 18 year old would improve the team. As would just playing Higham for 80 mins. Millard is a waste of a bench spot so we have nothing to loose by putting a different player on the bench.

If McIllorum ended up having a nightmare Higham could come back on and do the rest of the game. I only wish Noble would take Millard off and let Higham come on again when it's plain to see how bad Millard is.

The only difference between Millard and McIllorum is Millard offers nothing now or in the future whereas McIllorum has the potential to offer something such as a bit of pace around the ruck.

Leeds were not afraid to play Diskin in big games when he was starting out and I don't see why we should be afraid to play McIllorum.

The lad one day will get his chance but I don't think now would be the right time to play him. He's had no experience he would playing perhaps the best side in super league and a poor performance could dent his confidence.

What worries me is when we have an obvious under performing hooker in Millard is that he still gets picked and McIllorum is over looked. The is worrying because if a young player can't get a chance when the current first team player is rubbish when will he?

If Noble won't drop Millard now he is hardly going to do it if he doesn't look quite so bad against a lesser side so the only chance McIllorum is likely to get is if Millard is injured which is not how it should be.

Dave

[bertina]

DaveO posted:

pieater-alex posted:
Well I don't think Noble has enough options to replace Millard if we did want to drop him. I mean McIlorum hasn't played a single game in super league and is only 18 years of age and to play him against Leeds when the team hasn't been performing well is a risk Noble is not going to take.

Clearly not but he is making a mistake sticking with a poor player, whuich he said he would not do. If Millard offered anything to the side we would not be having this discussion but despite McIllorum's lack of experience giving him 20 mins with having Higham do the other 60 has got to be better for Wigan than bringing Millard on at all.

Have you not noticed how poor we are when Millard comes on? The fact McIllorum is only 18 and this is Leeds is not a problem to me because I firmly believe including this particular inexperienced 18 year old would improve the team. As would just playing Higham for 80 mins. Millard is a waste of a bench spot so we have nothing to loose by putting a different player on the bench.

If McIllorum ended up having a nightmare Higham could come back on and do the rest of the game. I only wish Noble would take Millard off and let Higham come on again when it's plain to see how bad Millard is.

The only difference between Millard and McIllorum is Millard offers nothing now or in the future whereas McIllorum has the potential to offer something such as a bit of pace around the ruck.

Leeds were not afraid to play Diskin in big games when he was starting out and I don't see why we should be afraid to play McIllorum.

The lad one day will get his chance but I don't think now would be the right time to play him. He's had no experience he would playing perhaps the best side in super league and a poor performance could dent his confidence.

What worries me is when we have an obvious under performing hooker in Millard is that he still gets picked and McIllorum is over looked. The is worrying because if a young player can't get a chance when the current first team player is rubbish when will he?

If Noble won't drop Millard now he is hardly going to do it if he doesn't look quite so bad against a lesser side so the only chance McIllorum is likely to get is if Millard is injured which is not how it should be.

Dave

I don't care who the hell we give a chance to as long as it's not Millard. You look to the bench to give you some fresh impetus on the field, and yet everybody (except Noble) can see that we are immediately worse when Millard comes on in place of Higham. To see someone play so poorly every game and yet still get selected must be extremely disheartening for the players on the fringes of the squad.

[Cruncher]

bertina posted:

DaveO posted:

pieater-alex posted:
Well I don't think Noble has enough options to replace Millard if we did want to drop him. I mean McIlorum hasn't played a single game in super league and is only 18 years of age and to play him against Leeds when the team hasn't been performing well is a risk Noble is not going to take.

Clearly not but he is making a mistake sticking with a poor player, whuich he said he would not do. If Millard offered anything to the side we would not be having this discussion but despite McIllorum's lack of experience giving him 20 mins with having Higham do the other 60 has got to be better for Wigan than bringing Millard on at all.

Have you not noticed how poor we are when Millard comes on? The fact McIllorum is only 18 and this is Leeds is not a problem to me because I firmly believe including this particular inexperienced 18 year old would improve the team. As would just playing Higham for 80 mins. Millard is a waste of a bench spot so we have nothing to loose by putting a different player on the bench.

If McIllorum ended up having a nightmare Higham could come back on and do the rest of the game. I only wish Noble would take Millard off and let Higham come on again when it's plain to see how bad Millard is.

The only difference between Millard and McIllorum is Millard offers nothing now or in the future whereas McIllorum has the potential to offer something such as a bit of pace around the ruck.

Leeds were not afraid to play Diskin in big games when he was starting out and I don't see why we should be afraid to play McIllorum.

The lad one day will get his chance but I don't think now would be the right time to play him. He's had no experience he would playing perhaps the best side in super league and a poor performance could dent his confidence.

What worries me is when we have an obvious under performing hooker in Millard is that he still gets picked and McIllorum is over looked. The is worrying because if a young player can't get a chance when the current first team player is rubbish when will he?

If Noble won't drop Millard now he is hardly going to do it if he doesn't look quite so bad against a lesser side so the only chance McIllorum is likely to get is if Millard is injured which is not how it should be.

Dave

I don't care who the hell we give a chance to as long as it's not Millard. You look to the bench to give you some fresh impetus on the field, and yet everybody (except Noble) can see that we are immediately worse when Millard comes on in place of Higham. To see someone play so poorly every game and yet still get selected must be extremely disheartening for the players on the fringes of the squad.

What players on the fringes of the squad?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, it's a genuine question. It seems to me that in the age of the salary cap, you take most clubs' usual starting 18 out of the equation and that's more or less it.

I'm not at all sure that Wigan have many more they can call on. I don't like Millard either, I think he's been a disaster - but McIlorum is only a kid. Many who've seen him recently say that he's nowhere near ready for SL yet.

Of course there are more permutations available to Noble than this, and many have questioned Goulding's absence from the first team, but he won't be getting selected regularly so long as Andy Clarke is trying to market him to Union - the less exposure that kid gets before he signs a new contract with us, the better.

And who else is there really?

We can chop and change and move guys around, but last season we lambasted Millward for not turning out a regular, settled team. I don't think it's quite as simple as some people are suggesting, and I really feel that putting Noble under fire so early in the season is an overly negative response.

However, I do agree that Millard is crap, and as things are at present, I would risk playing Higham as our sole hooker and putting another young forward on the bench.

[DaveO]

Cruncher posted:
We can chop and change and move guys around, but last season we lambasted Millward for not turning out a regular, settled team. I don't think it's quite as simple as some people are suggesting, and I really feel that putting Noble under fire so early in the season is an overly negative response.

It is very simple because we are not talking about Millward like wholesale selection changes week in week out but the dropping of one player who we all seem to agree offers nothing to the team.

Noble can either replace him with McIllorum or just drop him and run with four props with Higham doing the full 80.

I think the fact these are the two alternatives and the only real selection changes most people are calling for shows a bit of realism as to the depth of our squad on the part of the fans. It is something he could do to improve matters given the constraints he has to work under.

The fact he has done neither when Millard looks so ineffective is not putting Noble under fire as such (I see no "we need a new coach" calls) but criticising what people see as a poor selection policy which is hardly out of order on a forum.

However, I do agree that Millard is crap, and as things are at present, I would risk playing Higham as our sole hooker and putting another young forward on the bench.

But isn't saying that an implied criticism of Noble's continued selection of Millard?

Dave

[Cruncher]

DaveO posted:

Cruncher posted:
We can chop and change and move guys around, but last season we lambasted Millward for not turning out a regular, settled team. I don't think it's quite as simple as some people are suggesting, and I really feel that putting Noble under fire so early in the season is an overly negative response.

It is very simple because we are not talking about Millward like wholesale selection changes week in week out but the dropping of one player who we all seem to agree offers nothing to the team.

Noble can either replace him with McIllorum or just drop him and run with four props with Higham doing the full 80.

I think the fact these are the two alternatives and the only real selection changes most people are calling for shows a bit of realism as to the depth of our squad on the part of the fans. It is something he could do to improve matters given the constraints he has to work under.

The fact he has done neither when Millard looks so ineffective is not putting Noble under fire as such (I see no "we need a new coach" calls) but criticising what people see as a poor selection policy which is hardly out of order on a forum.

However, I do agree that Millard is crap, and as things are at present, I would risk playing Higham as our sole hooker and putting another young forward on the bench.

But isn't saying that an implied criticism of Noble's continued selection of Millard?
Dave

I was only pointing out that we mustn't kid ourselves that we've got lots of good kids waiting in the wings, because we haven't.

I know you didn't say that, but others have.

However, yes ... I do unreservedly agree that Noble's continued selection of Millard is baffling and disappointing.