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Our prolems have been in place the moment we gave Faz, Connolly, Radlinski and others huge contracts which forced us 2-3 seasons ago to let players go.

Rubbish. For a start I am pretty sure Connolly had left before the flat rate cap came in but even if he had not work it out for yourself. When they were here you could only pay 20 players over £20K. The salary cap was bigger £1.8m and £1.7m

There is plenty of money within salary caps of that level to pay such players a high wage. How much do you think Sanits GB players earn?

The reason in were were over the cap in 2005 is because the club brought in players to cover a ridiculous injury situation. That is the only reason.

Last season the club did what it thought it needed to avoid the drop. If it was a deliberate breach of the cap them those who made that decision have to take the consequences.

However if we had not rolled over and died v HKR twice, away at Hudds, Quins and Wakey it simply would not matter. That is 10 points given away - not taken away by the RFL.

Had the team not been such a shambles even if we get the maximum 12 point penalty that would merely leave us 2 points down again and I think that would be seen as a good price to pay for SL survival given the consequences of relegation.

And please no moral's about we should accept relegation on the chin etc rather than break the cap. It is an absolute disaster and given Saints are funding their squad by getting their players off paying income tax I fail to see where morals come into this game at all regarding the salary cap.

Were in the shit due to mismanagement off the filed rather than on it. Whatever damage IM did was small compared to what DW and MO have done. And MO cant complain about the rules.

He bought them into the game.

No he didn't. He brought in the salary cap that was based on income. Not the flat rate cap we have now.

Slagging Mo off with inaccurate facts just shows bias not reason.

Dave

thegimble posted:
Our prolems have been in place the moment we gave Faz, Connolly, Radlinski and others huge contracts which forced us 2-3 seasons ago to let players go.

This one always rears its head at times like this. Good players cost money, and even our sport's "good money" is less than people get elsewhere. Barrett will be costing us big money, and Fielden, so perhaps we should not have signed them either? Farrell was rated the best player in the world in his final season, winner of the Man of Steel, Golden Boot and getting an MBE - did he not justify a decent pay packet to go with the talents that won such awards?

And I'm sure the other teams are paying some of their players good money as well. There's no way the likes of Sculthorpe, Long, Cunningham, Vainokolo, Morley etc are on peanuts.

Our problems fitting under the salary cap have nothing to do with players like Faz and Rads who more than earned their money as far as I'm concerned, and more to do with us paying over-the-odds for less useful players such as Vaialiki, Ainscough, Matty Johns etc over the recent years (yes, I know some of these were in part of the seasons we've been penalised, but they are useful examples of underachieving players who will have been paid too much), plus some horrendous injury lists that meant we had to use two full squads' worth of players just to have 17 men to turn out for a game, along with some unplanned "retirements" (Davico, Seuseu, Farrell, Rads).

Automatic posted:
3-4 seasons ago we had a dispensation form RFL as to honor contracts and get the house in order.

The season after that we let a lot players go and that weakened the squad. Hence the failures over the last few seasons. We have a good 17 but once injuries start were screwed.

The team has changed with people retiring, leaving being recruited and what not since the dispensation. Releasing players the season after such as Furner has nothing to do with our squad now. Many of those players aren't even in the game any more.

MO maynot have bought the cap we have now but he did start a cap culture in the game. So therefore he should be the first to be able to work within the cap. Wether it was the old version or the one we have now.

That simply does not follow at all.

Saints keep under it by either off seas payments or if they are honest they are able to keep players new and old due to the success they have. Either way a club like Saints that has far lees incoming income than us are able to balance the books better than we do. And we have a much higher income then they do.

The level of income ceases to be relevant when it reaches enough for a club to pay out to the limit of the cap. We could earn 10 times as much as they do but we could still only spend the same on wages so the fact we have a higher income is irrelevant. Saints and Wigan were both allowed to spend £1.7m last season on wages and both could do so.

What is relevant is how much money you can get into players pockets without breaking the cap.

Saints get more into the players pockets by using offshore trusts which is a tax avoidance measure. For some reason the RFL chose to allow this rather dubious practice despite clearly stating in their own rules they are unsure of the legality of the situation from a tax point of view.

So the question is would you have Wigan use the same mechanism to pay players?

the chairman of the club and owner must accept resposibility for the mess we are going to be in again. the problems we have have been here for a long while were only dealing with the consequences of mis management and lack of forsight of the owner and the puppet.

They do have to accept the consequences and if as a result of a points deduction we end up relegated then they should go.

If however we manage to survive once again and maintain our SL status you have to decide if going over the cap was necessary due to circumstance to preserve our SL status or if it really was fundamental incompetence. Does the end justify the means?

I think for 2005 when we brought in cover as we started to run out of players the choice was simple. Do that or get relegated as we didn't have a squad left.

Last season is harder to justify because at the end of the day we were just crap for half a season so you could argue we should have stuck with Millward and the same team and gone down to NL1 and that would be the end of it. However I am sure Mo and DW know what the real consequences of that are so perhaps they decided to break the cap in the hope we would not have a repeat of last seasons poor form thus we would cope with another points deduction.

Whether you accept that as justifiable or not isn't the issue. What is from a competence point of view is that that Mo and DW reacted to circumstances that occurred on 2005 and 2006 as they happened. Not that we ended up in a mess in those years due to some long term problem.

Dave

So Dave0 the problems we had were in direct result of situations over the last 2 years.

The squad since 2000 has been weakened year on year resulting in mediocrity. We have won 2 trophies in the era of the GF.

Now you tell me the problems we have now have only been in place for 2 seasons. Long term failure in recruting good players eg Dallas, Smith, Lam and Barrett have over the recent years been success. Even likes of Danny Orr was been vilified this time last season.

Yes DV had a bit of a reputation but has not set SL on fire. Richards has improved this season. But yet again we are left with questions over the likes of Higham, Millard, Withers and countless others who are not good enough. Though Higham is an impact player hes not as good as when he had Cunnigham running sides ragged ready for him to tear apart.

The situation were in are from short term thinking by people at the top. Weve sacked replaced managers for varing reasons. the side has had no stability since 2000-2002.

Gregory's side punched above its weight and once he went ill Betts was out of his depth, due to the problems we had with the lack of real quality and the quality we haeg Faz got injured quite a bit.

So if we know what we are allowed to spend at the beginning of the season then surely MO and DW should ensure we stayed on track. Not destroy a season where we could get a CC final and a trp 4 finish.

If we get more than 4 points deduction the forget Wembley morale in the squad will plummet and we will go down as there is no fight in this sqaud.

Oh what would i give for Danny Orr to come back at no 7 with Barett.

Nobby`s Girl posted:

Cas blame us for going down

TUFF poo :exc:

Watch the language please!

thegimble posted:
So Dave0 the problems we had were in direct result of situations over the last 2 years.

The squad since 2000 has been weakened year on year resulting in mediocrity. We have won 2 trophies in the era of the GF.

Now you tell me the problems we have now have only been in place for 2 seasons. Long term failure in recruting good players eg Dallas, Smith, Lam and Barrett have over the recent years been success. Even likes of Danny Orr was been vilified this time last season.

Yes DV had a bit of a reputation but has not set SL on fire. Richards has improved this season. But yet again we are left with questions over the likes of Higham, Millard, Withers and countless others who are not good enough. Though Higham is an impact player hes not as good as when he had Cunnigham running sides ragged ready for him to tear apart.

The situation were in are from short term thinking by people at the top. Weve sacked replaced managers for varing reasons. the side has had no stability since 2000-2002.

Gregory's side punched above its weight and once he went ill Betts was out of his depth, due to the problems we had with the lack of real quality and the quality we haeg Faz got injured quite a bit.

So if we know what we are allowed to spend at the beginning of the season then surely MO and DW should ensure we stayed on track. Not destroy a season where we could get a CC final and a trp 4 finish.

If we get more than 4 points deduction the forget Wembley morale in the squad will plummet and we will go down as there is no fight in this sqaud.

Oh what would i give for Danny Orr to come back at no 7 with Barett.

absolutly spot on!!! when will dave open his eyes and realise what doris is doing to the club?? it seems strange how every wigan fan iv spoken to says the same thing lindsey is ruining the club ect!! at the end of the day weve won 2 cups since 1998 weve had god kno's how many coaches how many different squads have we had over the last 6 or 7 yrs?? im sorry dave but wigan need stability and we arnt gonna get it with lindsey here! last season proved it i know dobbo had to go back but orr was finding some brilliant form why didnt they keep him? from what id seen of luilui i didnt rate him anyway!but at least when barrett came we could have put orr at 7 and he'd have had some1 who knew the players working with him! you cant keep changing half backs year after year and hope to win trophie's!!!as is being proven now!!!!

let's face it the of rugby league hates us becuase of our past success,and it's let's get wigan at all costs.please as supporters let's not show our frustations with mo & dw on match days,but get behind who ever pulls on that cherry & white shirt never mind if we think they are good or bad,let's show all the world that like last season we will not roll over and die but keep fighting.

jammie posted:
let's face it the of rugby league hates us becuase of our past success,and it's let's get wigan at all costs.please as supporters let's not show our frustations with mo & dw on match days,but get behind who ever pulls on that cherry & white shirt never mind if we think they are good or bad,let's show all the world that like last season we will not roll over and die but keep fighting.

i think its already been proven jammie how loyal our fans are. last season more fans came back watching us when we were in trouble and this season the attendences have continued to rise but the question is how long will that carry on. with the club being run like it is and the risk of another points deduction theres only so much the fans can take!!!

lets just see what the damage is before we start calling for maurice's head. if we are way over then we call for his head.

the grinch posted:
lets just see what the damage is before we start calling for maurice's head. if we are way over then we call for his head.

Totally agree TG, you beat me to that response.

One thing's for certain, we didn't embark on a massive recruitment drive to beat the drop as indicated in the biased Yorkshire Post.

As pointed out elsewhere, Cas received a written warning for a SC overspend on gaining promotion from NL1 :exc: ...they will have forgotten about this - selective recall no doubt :exc: