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thats what i meant dave0! We have a history of producing excellent full backs (as you mentioned) but who do we have coming through in this position?

thomo wrote:I want us to produce a proper prop forward who has some size on them - like a big kid who has some bulk - Prescott and O'Carroll are very hard working kids but do not have the size yet to make an impact and we seem to be able to only slim down players

But then again I have an obsession with size and think biggest is best.

Don't think their are any more big young props coming through is there?

Unfortunately no. Big guys exist but they are not identified early enough and thus become unfit/fat and even drift out of sport.

warrior till i die wrote:thats what i meant dave0! We have a history of producing excellent full backs (as you mentioned) but who do we have coming through in this position?

Tricky mmm, Ashton was earmarked as Dave says we all know the history there. Chris Melling was also lost. He might be just what we need NOW.

Sam Reay is 24, a good pro but better suited to NL IMO.

Josh Vievers is getting some positive praise in some quarters. Personally I see him as steady but not startling when running the ball but given our current fullback, maybe steady is a step forward.

Gaz Melling plays full back for the academy. Small pacey, difficult to say at this stage. Seen the odd flash of brilliance but he can fade into the background too.

Stefan Marsh may be the best bet. He plays centre for the academy and is definetly not a centre IMO. He played full back quite a bit as a junior. Very fast, slim, some decent evasive skills he looks to me to be either a winger or a full back if he makes it.

warrior till i die wrote:well in 2 years (maybe 3) we will possibly have a certain Ian Thornley in the centres who is a beast!
The position where we have the best players coming through is definately second row; with mossop and davies to name two.

We also have very good half backs coming through in Tomkins and Joe Mellor. In a few years don't be surprised if this is our half back partnership.

We also have 2 excellent wingers coming through in Stanton and Ainscough; both of these could become very good wigan players.

I think we're struggling to produce full backs. Your opinion CP? I think this is very rare with wigan!

Ooooo and also look out by someone with the name of Farrell becoming an excellent wigan loose forward!

The thing which the coaches need to do is decided when to put them in the first team, in about 5 years I can see the team being a team full of wiganers again!

At hooker we also have the 3rd Tomkins, who is also a very good player!

Richards
Stanton
Goulding
Thornley
Ainscough
Tomkins
Mellor
O'Carroll
McIllorum
Prescott
O'Loughlin
Hansen
Farrell

Then a bench including any of... mossop, J tomkins, l tomkins, davies. Obviously our team will contain the odd overseas player but if we can keep the players above, we will have a very exciting team.

I wouldn't be surprised if our team looked something like that in a few years, sooner rather than later with the number of overseas players being reduced.

Ian isnt that good.
I played against him all of my life and he has never been amazing. As everybody caught up with his size he didnt look as dominant.

He is about 6 ft 4. Size doesnt mean everything in rugby does it.

Jamie Lyon is 5ft 10, so you cant really say because he is massive.

There are far more players in the u18s squad who are better then him and for more centres in other u18s squads.

He is a good player but dont know how anybody can say he is going to be in the first team in 2 or 3 years.

I will have to disagree with you Nathan. The timing etc seems optimistic but IMO he has the potential to go an awful long way. He needs to develop his skill set to go with his physique which is still very big even for pros. Whatsmore, in every game at academy level his strength/leg drive has been superb. He looks a much better prospect than his older brother.

I have not seen better centres in the 16 year olds running around so far. Out of interest who are they?

warrior til I die posted:
in about 5 years I can see the team being a team full of wiganers again!

Dream on!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this a particularly good thing - all Wiganers?

When discussing youngsters every one seems to believe that they will carry on "developing". Lots of youngsters peak between 18 and 20 yrs old and don't get better just bigger!

CPW harps on about the kids all the time but it is a much more precarious business and in no way an exact science to bring the young ones through. And to also aswer someone else's question - yes the kids have let us down - that is what kids do!!!

well i'm not dreaming DOD because we will require a greater amount of home grown players in 5 years anyway because of the reduction in overseas players so I may not be dreaming.

Doveoverdave wrote:

warrior til I die posted:
in about 5 years I can see the team being a team full of wiganers again!

Dream on!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this a particularly good thing - all Wiganers?

When discussing youngsters every one seems to believe that they will carry on "developing". Lots of youngsters peak between 18 and 20 yrs old and don't get better just bigger!

CPW harps on about the kids all the time but it is a much more precarious business and in no way an exact science to bring the young ones through. And to also aswer someone else's question - yes the kids have let us down - that is what kids do!!!

I would say our Adult players let us down even more DOD

An exact science? No However, some NRL clubs do adopt a scientific approach. The Brisbane Broncos I believe run test on juniors that may include tests on their family to establish physical development, strengths and weaknesses and so on.

I have never mentioned juniors have to be from Wigan. indeed, at our best we have always had to discover youngsters/senior players from elsewhere. John Monie IIRC said 2 from each age group becoming first teamers is what you should expect. That being so you need to cast your net wide (hope Nobby does not steal that line)

What is without doubt is that those youngsters allow long term planning, some progression/stability and VITAL a way of getting the best out of the salary cap. The most successful team now have a period where they bring a youngster or two into the first team on their awful low paid junior contracts and the club gets a SL player incredibly cheap for a year or two before the contract is renegotiated/upgraded and use the extra to get better quality seniors. If the junior is ready/playing first team when is new contract comes on stream then it allows you to let go of the 30 30+ player whose career is nearing the end.

Hopefully people can see that with Leeds and Saints. Hence, why both clubs fast track players at academy/reserve level whereas our coaching teams very often hold youngsters back saying they are too young and that reserve grade is too tough for a 16/17 year old etc.

If players reach 20 or 20+ you will have developed them but they may very well become hungry for first team and walk away for somebody else to get the benefit.

exactly CP. Look at what leeds done about 5 years ago, brought McGuire, Burrow, JJB, Lee Smith etc through the 21's and look at them now! Awesome players and experienced at such a young age.

This is what we should attempt to do; with the likes of the tomkins brothers, goulding, mcillorum. We don't need to be afraid to chuck youngsters in for them to develop considering we are pretty much guarenteed a franchise. The experience these lads would gain from playing in the first team.

The problem I have with all of this is that there does not seem to be a plan with the junior players. In the last few weeks we seem to have been continually signing more non-English players and releasing our own home produced talent. I guess we have seen the last of Darrell Goulding unfortunately. Brian Noble said after the Cas game that having youngster in the team leads to inconsistency yet of the 17 for Sunday 8 were non-English players (which is disgraceful) so exactly who is inconsistent?

It is no wonder that England is struggling to have half backs if our coaches all believe that English juniors in this position will never be good enough without giving them a go.

Will Wigan ever produce another English half back who plays for Wigan?

After Sam Tomkins had a reasonably good debut his confidence should have been sky high. Why not then have him on the bench for the next game even if it is to play some time as the change hooker. This is all experience of first grade and is invaluable.

Finally, did our coach not say that because of relegation it was not possible to give the young players a chance?