'New Breed' - what happend
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
The reason the younger players from a few years ago left the club was because they were completely miss managed when they came through into the first team. As I remember most of the players mentioned above had recieve some if not a lot of critism from the Wigan fans.
The problem around 2003 was a good bunch of young players came through and someone in the wigan warriors staff decided it was a good idea to make them regular first teamers the year after. Those promising player then struggled to cope with week-in-week-out routine and there performances dipped and since there were to many young players in key positions the whole team suffered. Brain Noble attempted to recover the situation by brining in experiance like Withers and Millard etc.
If you want to bring young players into a squad quickly then you need to have the whole team playing well and you need the leaders on the field to make sure that the young kids fit in.
Leeds and Saints have brought through a few young players in the last few seasons because the young players are playing behind a good team. Take Graham for example, in his first season he was playing against tired opposition after the first team forwards had destoryed them so he got time to delevop without huge amounts of pressure.
If Wigan want to get the best out of players like Goulding, Joel and Sam etc then first the established players need to be playing well. It should be the job of the first team players to come up with the key moments in games and the young players to work around that. You can't expect a young player like Goulding to making the breaks when the players around him like Bailey, O'Loughlin etc are not performing.
The problem around 2003 was a good bunch of young players came through and someone in the wigan warriors staff decided it was a good idea to make them regular first teamers the year after. Those promising player then struggled to cope with week-in-week-out routine and there performances dipped and since there were to many young players in key positions the whole team suffered. Brain Noble attempted to recover the situation by brining in experiance like Withers and Millard etc.
If you want to bring young players into a squad quickly then you need to have the whole team playing well and you need the leaders on the field to make sure that the young kids fit in.
Leeds and Saints have brought through a few young players in the last few seasons because the young players are playing behind a good team. Take Graham for example, in his first season he was playing against tired opposition after the first team forwards had destoryed them so he got time to delevop without huge amounts of pressure.
If Wigan want to get the best out of players like Goulding, Joel and Sam etc then first the established players need to be playing well. It should be the job of the first team players to come up with the key moments in games and the young players to work around that. You can't expect a young player like Goulding to making the breaks when the players around him like Bailey, O'Loughlin etc are not performing.
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
I see the point your making here and agree that it is best policy to bring a few youngsters through whilst in the company of a settled experienced team. However, the team doesn't need to be playing well- westerman, shenton, mccarthy scarsbrook- all had good seasons last year whilst playing in poor teams. If anything playing in a poor team gives a young player the chance to grab some attention- if they have the skill they will come to the fore.MrDave wrote:The reason the younger players from a few years ago left the club was because they were completely miss managed when they came through into the first team. As I remember most of the players mentioned above had recieve some if not a lot of critism from the Wigan fans.
The problem around 2003 was a good bunch of young players came through and someone in the wigan warriors staff decided it was a good idea to make them regular first teamers the year after. Those promising player then struggled to cope with week-in-week-out routine and there performances dipped and since there were to many young players in key positions the whole team suffered. Brain Noble attempted to recover the situation by brining in experiance like Withers and Millard etc.
If you want to bring young players into a squad quickly then you need to have the whole team playing well and you need the leaders on the field to make sure that the young kids fit in.
Leeds and Saints have brought through a few young players in the last few seasons because the young players are playing behind a good team. Take Graham for example, in his first season he was playing against tired opposition after the first team forwards had destoryed them so he got time to delevop without huge amounts of pressure.
If Wigan want to get the best out of players like Goulding, Joel and Sam etc then first the established players need to be playing well. It should be the job of the first team players to come up with the key moments in games and the young players to work around that. You can't expect a young player like Goulding to making the breaks when the players around him like Bailey, O'Loughlin etc are not performing.
brown, bibey et al came to our attention...because of how poor they were! it doesn't matter how poor the team you are in is if you can't catch, kick, pass or know when to pass
NOBLE OUT PLEASE- YOU'VE HAD TIME AND NOW MY PATIENCE HAS RUN OUT!
IT'S ONE THING TO LOSE, IT'S ANOTHER TO PLAY DIRE AND BORING RL AND THEN LOSE!
IT'S ONE THING TO LOSE, IT'S ANOTHER TO PLAY DIRE AND BORING RL AND THEN LOSE!
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
Briscoe was behind Rads for full back and would not have got a game for a few years given how long Rads went on to play for us.
I don't think loaning him out was an option either as back then we had this stupid 20/20 rule where if a player played more than 20 SL games for the senior side he counted as one of your 20 senior players regardless of age and you were limited to 20 such players.
So had he picked up the first team games while an employee of the club once he came back from loan one of the other senior players in the 20 would have to have gone.
Tickle had great season in the one before his last for us and I think he won a supporters award for player of the season or something like that. Millward came along and he lost his number from the starting 13 and things seemed to go down hill for him from then on.
Wilde chose the season his contract was up to have a poor one and was outplayed (ironically) by the likes of Tickle so you could hardly retain him at the expense of the others if you take the short term view which IMO the club did on several occasions. David Hodgson was a victim of that being judged on a season when he came back from a serious Achilles injury not unlike Calderwood last season.
Brown seemed to believe Steveo's hype and just went downhill. He played some awful games for us but Millward didn't help by doing things like playing him at 13 on one occasion.
Robinson left under a bit of a cloud in theory but I don't know if there was any truth in that. I seem to recall him and some of the others who left at the end of that season being presented with a plaque on the pitch at the last home game as if the club was sorry to see them leave.
Dave
I don't think loaning him out was an option either as back then we had this stupid 20/20 rule where if a player played more than 20 SL games for the senior side he counted as one of your 20 senior players regardless of age and you were limited to 20 such players.
So had he picked up the first team games while an employee of the club once he came back from loan one of the other senior players in the 20 would have to have gone.
Tickle had great season in the one before his last for us and I think he won a supporters award for player of the season or something like that. Millward came along and he lost his number from the starting 13 and things seemed to go down hill for him from then on.
Wilde chose the season his contract was up to have a poor one and was outplayed (ironically) by the likes of Tickle so you could hardly retain him at the expense of the others if you take the short term view which IMO the club did on several occasions. David Hodgson was a victim of that being judged on a season when he came back from a serious Achilles injury not unlike Calderwood last season.
Brown seemed to believe Steveo's hype and just went downhill. He played some awful games for us but Millward didn't help by doing things like playing him at 13 on one occasion.
Robinson left under a bit of a cloud in theory but I don't know if there was any truth in that. I seem to recall him and some of the others who left at the end of that season being presented with a plaque on the pitch at the last home game as if the club was sorry to see them leave.
Dave
- cherrywarrior
- Posts: 988
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:03 am
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
I can confirm that Luke did indeed leave under abit of a cloud, but not a huge one, just a little one...
Wish list: Billy Slater please!!!!!!!!
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
Do you think we would have done well with a halfback pairing of Robinson and Brown ?? We had Three props coming through Hargreaves , Prescott , and O'carrol I think we have the best of the three in Prescott if he can stay injury free .
Briscoe would have had to wait three years to replace Rads again Ashton was the one to keep his defence was better than Mathers and he was a lot more dangerous than any british full back that I've seen he would have improved as well.
The pack ....well when it comes to backrow we are not short are we ? I would have kept Wilde although Tickle was fans player of the year when Wilde left, with lockers ,Hock and Tomkins we have not done too bad we also have Hansen .
The thing is you would have to fill the rest of the team with top players for the ''new breed'' to have won anything ........Monie is rite if you get one or two out of every batch you are doing well . If you add to this the poor running and leadeship at the club I dont think we find ourselves in to poor of condition with our young players .
I would love to see Tomkins come through like is brother did last year and the lack of a halfback with a running game this season may alow this .
The team have not been good enough the last few years to blood youngsters and not risk defeat!! even without doing so some performances have been diabolical!!
In conclusion even though it hurts Saints have been in the position we were years back miles ahead alowing young lads to come in without to much risk of defeat the new breed have gone on to other clubs without to much sucsess I think we got the best ones in Hock , Lockers and Prescott the real one that got away I feel is Ashton , a player who with real pace could have not just been good for us but hurt the Aussies and NZ aswell .
Briscoe would have had to wait three years to replace Rads again Ashton was the one to keep his defence was better than Mathers and he was a lot more dangerous than any british full back that I've seen he would have improved as well.
The pack ....well when it comes to backrow we are not short are we ? I would have kept Wilde although Tickle was fans player of the year when Wilde left, with lockers ,Hock and Tomkins we have not done too bad we also have Hansen .
The thing is you would have to fill the rest of the team with top players for the ''new breed'' to have won anything ........Monie is rite if you get one or two out of every batch you are doing well . If you add to this the poor running and leadeship at the club I dont think we find ourselves in to poor of condition with our young players .
I would love to see Tomkins come through like is brother did last year and the lack of a halfback with a running game this season may alow this .
The team have not been good enough the last few years to blood youngsters and not risk defeat!! even without doing so some performances have been diabolical!!
In conclusion even though it hurts Saints have been in the position we were years back miles ahead alowing young lads to come in without to much risk of defeat the new breed have gone on to other clubs without to much sucsess I think we got the best ones in Hock , Lockers and Prescott the real one that got away I feel is Ashton , a player who with real pace could have not just been good for us but hurt the Aussies and NZ aswell .
-
- Posts: 1310
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 3:27 am
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
if Mike never had got ill then i honestly think he still will be coach because we were undefeated in 11 and got to the final then got to the challenge cup final the next year.
he seemed to have a charisma that was loved and a respect that was loyal to the day he couldnt coach anymore and he sadly left this world
he seemed to have a charisma that was loved and a respect that was loyal to the day he couldnt coach anymore and he sadly left this world
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
Hansen is two years younger than Tickle and four years younger then Wilde.mickw wrote:the bottom line for me is over the last 5/6 seasons, we as fans who watch every week seem to have a better idea of a player than the club does.we`ve let players leave and kept others and as a pure judgement call on tallent ,the fans have wondered why.
we`ve let various second rows go and kept faith in hanson,is he better than wild or tickle?
When we let these players go Hansen was a young player breaking through into the first team.
It was not a straight choice between then because they were at different stages of their development and so could command different levels of wages.
We will always have to let some players go as we simply can't keep them all. How we manage this over the next couple of seasons is going to be crucial. There are players coming through like Thornley who plays in the same position as exiting young player in this case Goulding - left centre. Which one do we keep?the same with the backs players have left yet colbon was persisted with despite a lack of pace.maybe we can`t cope with the amount of players that come through.one thing is for sure i for one don`t trust the management`s judgement on who`s good enough and who`s not.
I am not confident we will get this right but its essential when the older overseas players (and Phelps) contracts are up we let them leave and bring our players through.
Dave
-
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:22 pm
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
I think a lot of what went on then had an awful lot to do with who was running the club at the time.
I agree with Briscoe and Wild being the ones that got away,the rest were largely solid enough players but nothing outstanding.
I don't think there is a chance that Ian Lenegan will let the likes of young Sam Tomkins slip through the net,and not just because of the ruling about homegrown players coming in.I have just watched Darryl Gouldings video interview,and,he made the point about there being so many local lads in the squad,and all the banter that goes with it.
Having local lads in the squad and team is essential,and Ian Lenegan knows that,he won't make the same mistakes as Lindsay did.
I agree with Briscoe and Wild being the ones that got away,the rest were largely solid enough players but nothing outstanding.
I don't think there is a chance that Ian Lenegan will let the likes of young Sam Tomkins slip through the net,and not just because of the ruling about homegrown players coming in.I have just watched Darryl Gouldings video interview,and,he made the point about there being so many local lads in the squad,and all the banter that goes with it.
Having local lads in the squad and team is essential,and Ian Lenegan knows that,he won't make the same mistakes as Lindsay did.
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
Briscoe did not get away. He had to leave to get first team football. A combination of the rules (20/20) and the fact Rads was in his prime just as Briscoe was ready to break into the first team meant he had to leave. He isn't some mega star anyway.Carmont is King wrote:I think a lot of what went on then had an awful lot to do with who was running the club at the time.
I agree with Briscoe and Wild being the ones that got away,the rest were largely solid enough players but nothing outstanding.
I don't think there is a chance that Ian Lenegan will let the likes of young Sam Tomkins slip through the net,and not just because of the ruling about homegrown players coming in.I have just watched Darryl Gouldings video interview,and,he made the point about there being so many local lads in the squad,and all the banter that goes with it.
Having local lads in the squad and team is essential,and Ian Lenegan knows that,he won't make the same mistakes as Lindsay did.
Wilde had a poor season before he left and we had several other who could do his job. He was possibly unlucky but one player out of quite a few to get wrong is nothing to complain about. Would he get a game in our current squad given the back row? Would J Tomkins have got a run were Wilde available last season to fill in for Lockers?
It's really easy to look back and rue the loss of some players but unless you take into account the circumstances at the time they left it's too easy to blame the people in charge at the time.
As to local lads in the squad, banter does not win you titles. If they are not good enough then we need to move them on.
Dave
Re: 'New Breed' - what happend
I'm amazed that anyone is taking this thread seriously.
How long are we going to keep raking up (and quite often rewriting) this lump of Wigan RL history? Even the trolls have got bored with it now.
Are we really concerned about something that happened around 2003?
Hand on heart, how many of these kids that we supposedly let 'get away' have genuinely gone on to greater things?
Do people really believe that Kevin Brown is a star of the modern game? Do people still wish we had Luke Robinson, when he's got nowhere near international selection even though there are hardly any British born halves in SL, and is now being slagged off even by the Salford fans? Do people still think of Aspinwall and Wilde as being 'kids', even though they were both in their mid-20s when they left Wigan? And are we forgetting the fact that three we kept - O'Loughlin, Hock and Hansen - have now chalked up a considerable number of international selections between them (or is that fact too inconvenient to recall)?
Talk about viewing the past through rose-tinted lenses.
Briscoe is, at best, an average SL player - he's never fulfilled the promise of his youth. The same could be said for Tickle, whereas the likes of Coyle seem to have disappeared off the map altogether.
If the originator of this thread genuinely believes that a crop of youngsters like that was more promising than the current crop we've got - with Farrell, Thornley, the Tomkins brothers, Ainscough, Mossop, Davies et al - then I'd suggest he's following the wrong game, because his knowledge is not all it could be.
Either that or he's got an agenda to keep the moaning going at any cost.
How long are we going to keep raking up (and quite often rewriting) this lump of Wigan RL history? Even the trolls have got bored with it now.
Are we really concerned about something that happened around 2003?
Hand on heart, how many of these kids that we supposedly let 'get away' have genuinely gone on to greater things?
Do people really believe that Kevin Brown is a star of the modern game? Do people still wish we had Luke Robinson, when he's got nowhere near international selection even though there are hardly any British born halves in SL, and is now being slagged off even by the Salford fans? Do people still think of Aspinwall and Wilde as being 'kids', even though they were both in their mid-20s when they left Wigan? And are we forgetting the fact that three we kept - O'Loughlin, Hock and Hansen - have now chalked up a considerable number of international selections between them (or is that fact too inconvenient to recall)?
Talk about viewing the past through rose-tinted lenses.
Briscoe is, at best, an average SL player - he's never fulfilled the promise of his youth. The same could be said for Tickle, whereas the likes of Coyle seem to have disappeared off the map altogether.
If the originator of this thread genuinely believes that a crop of youngsters like that was more promising than the current crop we've got - with Farrell, Thornley, the Tomkins brothers, Ainscough, Mossop, Davies et al - then I'd suggest he's following the wrong game, because his knowledge is not all it could be.
Either that or he's got an agenda to keep the moaning going at any cost.