The Blame Game Begins

[cpwigan]

So CP are you suggesting that the British players/coaches in the Wigan set up are to blame for us failing to win another GF? Yes the British game has many more weaknesses compared to Aus/NZ but although it pains me to say the performances of Graham, Roby, Gaskell and Lomax yesterday showed me that some British players still have the right attitude and desire.

NO TB, what I am saying and to be honest it is no different in other sports across Britain, that on the whole the vast majority of British teams/players (any nationality) lack true mental toughness and are not clinically professional in how they approach or play sports. Yes, there are exceptions BUT they are anomalys and sometimes you get youngsters that are initially ok but go downward. No offence but to group Lomax/Gaskell alongside Graham and Roby is stupid.

You look at our efforts internationally, our efforts in demanding / highly pressurised games and British RL as a whole is found wanting. Coaches have to rule with an iron rod and are often dealing with pitiful behaviour that has no place in adult life let alone elite professional sports.

As a nation, British people are found wanting all too often.

The present Wigan team by and large is no mentally tough, nor clinically professional.

[DaveO]

Only started slipping in the last couple of months Dave. Noticeably anyhow. Who is to blame? You would like me to say Madge and whilst he has a part, the mental toughness / the professionalism or rather lack of it of British RL players existed before Madge and will do long after. It is why we suffer internationally. These last 2 games before the GF saddened me because they showed how mentally weak and unprofessional British RL players are.

I didn't want you to say Madge but if there is a problem with a team whatever it is the coach is ultimately responsible. You could have said several players had decided enough was enough with the CC win for example so I I was looking for your reasons behind your assertion whatever those reasons may have been.

Your point is more general in that Wigan players exhibited a kind British sporting disease of lack of mental toughness???? I was under the impression from your previous post that something had happened in the camp to cause this malaise. Not they were just being typically British.

That raises another question. Are you saying the ones lacking mental toughness were only our British players? Or have the imports picked up the bad habits as well?

Either way as you seem to be making a general point about British RL players not something that went wrong at Wigan so it ought to apply to other teams and it doesn't seem to have done at Leeds and Saints.

[TrueBlueWarrior]

I only grouped the 4 Stains players together because of their performances last night, I thought they were all superb and showed the traditional British attitude and toughness that was needed for that game and ultimately the win. I know that is only a tiny example but I thought it was a little glimmer of hope for British RL along with some other good youngsters providing Steve Mc is not in charge of them. As for the British Sporting Mentality in general I completely agree with you CP, I have played sport at a professional level so I have first hand experience and also I now work with children everyday from the age of 11-16 and I have said this previously on another post there is too much wrong with British Sport right across all sports and it is down to many reasons including our education of children. The only English sport doing itself justice at the moment is Cricket and that is down to a Zimbabwean.

[cpwigan]

Read my last post Dave!!!

Let me spell it out to you. Madge transformed the Wigan club. He accepted no nonsense and he took a very tough line. Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do. You can only adopt a hard line for so long and when players know you are going that certainly does not help. However, sometime British RL players seem to need anything but a coach; parenting/psychologist/social worker.

British RL clubs/players are mentally weak compared to other countries/competitions. The older the players get the more obvious it becomes. Personally, I think Madge got some things wrong, not selecting on form in 2011, not resting players at certain times, not binging more players through. However, he got so much right, fitness/discipline/preparation despite some players acting no better than children BUT as with any coach the players are ultimately responsible for what happens on the pitch and their lack of mental toughness / clinical professionalism sees them do dumb stupid things, take their foot off the effort pedal. No different at Wire either and it will be exactly the same when England front up in the 4N. Why do NZ rarely select British based players, is it just the travel issue

WE know what a mentally tough clinical professional is BUT they are the exception rather than the norm EVEN at Wigan.

Yet, why should British RL players, British footballers be any different when they live in Britain. The exmple set / the conduct of British people in the main is awful.

[cpwigan]

I only grouped the 4 Stains players together because of their performances last night, I thought they were all superb and showed the traditional British attitude and toughness that was needed for that game and ultimately the win. I know that is only a tiny example but I thought it was a little glimmer of hope for British RL along with some other good youngsters providing Steve Mc is not in charge of them. As for the British Sporting Mentality in general I completely agree with you CP, I have played sport at a professional level so I have first hand experience and also I now work with children everyday from the age of 11-16 and I have said this previously on another post there is too much wrong with British Sport right across all sports and it is down to many reasons including our education of children. The only English sport doing itself justice at the moment is Cricket and that is down to a Zimbabwean.

Fair enough TrueBlue. My worry is what do Gaskell and Lomax become 3 + years down the line. I know that Sam T at 18 would never have even thought about doing some of the stupid things he has done this season.

You will know far better than we do and sadly not sure many even understand the degree of mental fortitude and 'intelligence' that top level sport demands.

V Saints and quite frequently in the latter half of 2011, the Wigan players have acted and played dumb. They lost a great opportunity to do the double. I only hope they can discover what is required to dominate a competition and win anything / everything.

[TrueBlueWarrior]

Well if they carry on playing for Stains hopefully they will be as stupid as most other young British RL players lol!

We will be back CP and hopefully if he is appointed Waney will tighten up the ship again.

[DaveO]

British RL clubs/players are mentally weak compared to other countries/competitions. The older the players get the more obvious it becomes. Personally, I think Madge got some things wrong, not selecting on form in 2011, not resting players at certain times, not binging more players through. However, he got so much right, fitness/discipline/preparation despite some players acting no better than children BUT as with any coach the players are ultimately responsible for what happens on the pitch and their lack of mental toughness / clinical professionalism sees them do dumb stupid things, take their foot off the effort pedal. No different at Wire either and it will be exactly the same when England front up in the 4N. Why do NZ rarely select British based players, is it just the travel issue

But it worked last year in that the players looked like the transformation off field in terms of discipline/fitness/preparation etc had worked. They all looked like they bought into the ethos. Very few didn't such as Pryce.

Indeed those of us crying out for a change in ethos were delighted and as I have said many times you could tell from the interview Wane gave just after Madge got appointed he was very frustrated under Noble and clearly had to bite his tongue.

What you are suggesting therefore is the players having been shown how to be better players and who looked in control of just about every game they played in 2010 decided this year to give all that good stuff up. I don't think that is realistic.

Under Noble we had plan A and guaranteed selection for certain players and struggled to string 3 wins in a row together. Basically the same team goes from that to win a GF and in a definitive way after a great season in the league we all put down to a revolution off-field.

This year it has been very different. Too many ugly wins. CC quarters and semis apart nothing that matched the way the team played in 2010 and all this is because the players are not professional or mentally tough enough this year?

Yet, why should British RL players, British footballers be any different when they live in Britain. The exmple set / the conduct of British people in the main is awful.

I don't agree. I think you have been reading too many Daily Mail headlines.

Something (or things) went wrong and affected their attitude at the end of the season and didn't have them playing as well early on and you yourself have posted about lack of bonus payments after the CC for example as a source of unrest. IIRC you have also alluded to other bits of poor management of the players such as low wages for some so you can't on the one hand hint the club is treating the players poorly and then say the reason we have been poor is unprofessional players.

It's too easy a reason. The players are natural competitors not benefit cheats out for an easy ride and showed in 2010 they wanted to win.

However if they did do as you say there was a simple option for the coach. Drop the players swinging the lead. We wanted Noble to break the comfort zone, he didn't but in 2010 Madge did. In 2011 he didn't. So even if you are right and the players are mentally weak and unprofessional the issue was not dealt with by the coaching staff.

[mickh]

Move Joel back to the pack and get a quality centre.

The team brought the Challenge Cup home! That is good enough for me.

Stop whipping the team, unless you are willing to step on the pitch. I've seen a lot of good rugby league from Wigan this season. Rest your fingers 'til next.

Have a good holiday lads, you have deserved it!

[cpwigan]

British RL clubs/players are mentally weak compared to other countries/competitions. The older the players get the more obvious it becomes. Personally, I think Madge got some things wrong, not selecting on form in 2011, not resting players at certain times, not binging more players through. However, he got so much right, fitness/discipline/preparation despite some players acting no better than children BUT as with any coach the players are ultimately responsible for what happens on the pitch and their lack of mental toughness / clinical professionalism sees them do dumb stupid things, take their foot off the effort pedal. No different at Wire either and it will be exactly the same when England front up in the 4N. Why do NZ rarely select British based players, is it just the travel issue

But it worked last year in that the players looked like the transformation off field in terms of discipline/fitness/preparation etc had worked. They all looked like they bought into the ethos. Very few didn't such as Pryce.

Indeed those of us crying out for a change in ethos were delighted and as I have said many times you could tell from the interview Wane gave just after Madge got appointed he was very frustrated under Noble and clearly had to bite his tongue.

What you are suggesting therefore is the players having been shown how to be better players and who looked in control of just about every game they played in 2010 decided this year to give all that good stuff up. I don't think that is realistic.

Under Noble we had plan A and guaranteed selection for certain players and struggled to string 3 wins in a row together. Basically the same team goes from that to win a GF and in a definitive way after a great season in the league we all put down to a revolution off-field.

This year it has been very different. Too many ugly wins. CC quarters and semis apart nothing that matched the way the team played in 2010 and all this is because the players are not professional or mentally tough enough this year?

Yet, why should British RL players, British footballers be any different when they live in Britain. The exmple set / the conduct of British people in the main is awful.

I don't agree. I think you have been reading too many Daily Mail headlines.

Something (or things) went wrong and affected their attitude at the end of the season and didn't have them playing as well early on and you yourself have posted about lack of bonus payments after the CC for example as a source of unrest. IIRC you have also alluded to other bits of poor management of the players such as low wages for some so you can't on the one hand hint the club is treating the players poorly and then say the reason we have been poor is unprofessional players.

It's too easy a reason. The players are natural competitors not benefit cheats out for an easy ride and showed in 2010 they wanted to win.

However if they did do as you say there was a simple option for the coach. Drop the players swinging the lead. We wanted Noble to break the comfort zone, he didn't but in 2010 Madge did. In 2011 he didn't. So even if you are right and the players are mentally weak and unprofessional the issue was not dealt with by the coaching staff.

Jesus Dave, wind your neck in. I have never read the Daily Mail in all my life.

British people are typically poor at team sports. The British Ego, know it all/we know better invariably kicks in and undermines previous progress. British people forget what they had to do to achieve something and become their own worst enemies.

Wigan are British and that means that whomever coaches them is immediately having to fight the stupidity of Britishness. We have no mental toughness, we are not clinical we are an arrogant nation of know it alls who even when shown the correct path beg to differ and fight to take our own route.

Lowe, Monie battled against it. Monie explains the selfish nature of British sporstmen and how he strived to get them to put the team first. Madge has done the same but there is a limit to what he can do. Quite frankly the behaviour and attitude of some of our players is so embrassing that it truly beggars belief.

British arrogance produces mentally weak players. Players who ignore game plans because they know better and clamour like fans for harlem globe trotter RL. They will not admit it, they might not even know but yes we won games in the opening quarter last season because we stranglled every ounce of will out of the opposition. In 2011 the Wigan players attempted to rewrite RL logic and make mistakes, be poorly disciplined and still win.

Forget what we think we know. V Saints this weekend we had a much poorer completion rate, we made two handling errors to every one of theirs and conceded almost double the penalties.

You cannot win RL games at the highest level playing dumb. Wire tried it v Leeds, we had the warning but still the Wigan players did not heed that warning and proceeded to throw the game away v Saints.

British RL is bereft of patience, it still shows a lack of respect for possession and field position. The players are mentally weak and look to hit the jackpot every set in a game. WE are dumb at RL, dumb at football, dumb at life!

[Panchitta Marra]

Before Madge's appointment was announced we would have all no doubt gladly accepted a wheel hub, a SL Grand Final Trophy and the Challenge Cup returning home in the coaches time here.
IMO winning the minor premiers and Grand Final in 2010 was a season ahead of expection, and an added bonus.
I am convinced that winning the Challenge cup was Madge's goal for 2011, however, I strongly agree with others that any progress in bringing on the progression of the younger players for 2012 and beyond was put on the backburner to ensure the cup was won.
To me this has been solely to strengthen his CV and not neccessarily in the best interest of WWRLFC beyond his services.
IMO we now need to look at bringing through our young kids in a controlled manor, and I am happy to go through a transition period for this to come good.