What is happening to the Labour Party?

[Owd Codger]

In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.

Think your mate was spot on there. I remember the atmosphere in 1997 after years of Thatcher & Major. He was being cheered into No 10.

Some good things were done. I think people forget The NHS was on it's knees with people on trolleys in corridors back in 1997. That got sorted, not always in the right way with PFI funding and so on but it certainly improved. It is now going backwards again.

Our schools were literally crumbling (which people also forget) and so I saw first hand as my son went through education the investment that went into improving our schools. This is also now going backwards again to a pre 1900 system (one the Tories back then scrapped in favour of LEA control...).

The problem Labour have had politically since Brown took over was they were overtaken by events (crash 2008) and were outmaneuvered by being beaten at Blair's own game of spin.

It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it lback left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.

In my opinion, it all started way back when Tony Blair was elected with the promise of a New Beginning. I always remember my Buddy saying later that Tony Blair had a big enough majority to reshape society but, instead, we ended up with New Labour aka New Tory.

Think your mate was spot on there. I remember the atmosphere in 1997 after years of Thatcher & Major. He was being cheered into No 10.

Some good things were done. I think people forget The NHS was on it's knees with people on trolleys in corridors back in 1997. That got sorted, not always in the right way with PFI funding and so on but it certainly improved. It is now going backwards again.

Our schools were literally crumbling (which people also forget) and so I saw first hand as my son went through education the investment that went into improving our schools. This is also now going backwards again to a pre 1900 system (one the Tories back then scrapped in favour of LEA control...).

The problem Labour have had politically since Brown took over was they were overtaken by events (crash 2008) and were outmaneuvered by being beaten at Blair's own game of spin.

It is Labour's failure to combat the propaganda that has given the right free reign. Instead of saying, punitive benefit sanctions were bad or £9K student loans were bad (for example) Labour had forgotten how to oppose bad policy and ended up trying to outdo the Tories being tough on such things.

They had allowed the Tories to set the tone.

There is a thing in politics called the Overton Window which is a window onto the views the electorate currently buy into. It is not static and can be moved left or right. It has been moved way to the right and New Labour doesn't know how to move it back left.

So when people are conned into thinking everyone on benefits is a scrounger so currently it is popular to squeeze them until they literally starve, New Labour jumps on the bandwagon.

Corbyn is trying to oppose this view but the problem is he is seen outside Labour members as Michael Foot MkII. Unelectable.

So you have a battle. The Liz Kendall side of the party who think unless you are in power you can do nothing so will say almost anything to get into power (which doesn't work as they look no different to Tories) and the Corbyn side of it who want to move away from New Labour (and not that far to the left if you look) but who are shafted by a very effective hostile press but also their own amateurish attempts at running the party.

I remember when Michael Foot was leader it was a disaster and Corbyn reminds me so much of them times. Just like Foot , Corbyn is supported by members and unions but lacks the leadership qualities to win any election against the conservatives so labour will go into years of being unelectable .Do we want this to happen, the conservatives certainly do, I have after years of being an idealist realise to win elections you have to compromise on what you want from a labour government and expect a lot less. You do not have to have a Blair as leader but a more moderate middle of road leader with a good and strong personality is needed and the labour support to expect much less of its party. There is no utopia around the corner,all we can hope for is a fairer society where the lower and poorer in society get a better deal

We have never had a true left of centre Democratic Socialist Labour Party since Blair made it into what is now a second Tory Party full of ex. University career politicians only interested in ladder climbing and who think that they will be elected on the strength of a middle class vote while at the same time making many of their working class voters feel that the party no longer represents them.

And what kind of Labour Party introduces a minimum wage with no increments for working unsocial hours like evenings, weekends and bank holidays which has resulted in employers employing immigrants to do the menial jobs on it, other workers having their pay dragged down to the level of the minimum wage and more and more finding that they are as well of living on benefits than what they will get in a low paid job. Before anyone says that the minimum wage was introduced because it was found that around 200,000 people were earning less than the minimum wage at the time it was introduced might be interested to know that it has now gone over 250,000 and that is only the ones known about. The present Tory Government has since April introduced a new band for workers between 21 and 24 of £670 (50p per hour less than the full rate) but has Labour and the trade Unions done anything to oppose it, No, with the odd exception they have been too busy looking after number one or falling out with each other.

Everything the Labour and Trade Union movement fought for and gained over a century is being destroyed not only by the Tories but also the party which is supposed to stand up for the less wealthy in our society.

I have always voted Labour all my life. but have not done so for the last decade or so because of the reasons stated and never will again until the party returns to its roots as a true Labour Party not afraid of using the word Socialist!

We are going back to Victorian times and with most of the Labour Party MP's in Parliament out of touch with the people who elected them.

A reason I think, why so many ordinary people voted to leave in the EU referendum as they saw it as the only way to stir things up and make the politicians listen to their concerns.

Finally, it is no use saying that Corbyn is un-electable when politicians like Millibrand was no different on the moderate side.

Like I have said before, its like watching Nero fiddle while Rome burns!

[DaveO]

We have never had a true left of centre Democratic Socialist Labour Party since Blair made it into what is now a second Tory Party full of ex. University career politicians only interested in ladder climbing and who think that they will be elected on the strength of a middle class vote while at the same time making many of their working class voters feel that the party no longer represents them.

You have had one since Corbyn took over. It's proving a hard sell though beyond the party faithful with even Labour's core support voting UKIP as if that lot have their interests at heart.

And what kind of Labour Party introduces a minimum wage with no increments for working unsocial hours like evenings, weekends and bank holidays which has resulted in employers employing immigrants to do the menial jobs on it, other workers having their pay dragged down to the level of the minimum wage and more and more finding that they are as well of living on benefits than what they will get in a low paid job.

So in your eyes a minimum wage is a bad thing because it drags other people's wages down. Spoken like a true Tory.

Before anyone says that the minimum wage was introduced because it was found that around 200,000 people were earning less than the minimum wage at the time it was introduced might be interested to know that it has now gone over 250,000 and that is only the ones known about. The present Tory Government has since April introduced a new band for workers between 21 and 24 of £670 (50p per hour less than the full rate) but has Labour and the trade Unions done anything to oppose it, No, with the odd exception they have been too busy looking after number one or falling out with each other.

They aren't in government and I think you will find they do oppose it. In my local authority Labour, who took over in 2015, have in fact introduced the real living wage, not Osborne's sham of one. I suppose that doesn't fit with our argument though does it?

And before quoting stats like that you might want to check out how many people have jobs now compared to when it was first introduced. Without the minimum wage there would I have no doubt be a lot more than 250,000 on a lot less.

Everything the Labour and Trade Union movement fought for and gained over a century is being destroyed not only by the Tories but also the party which is supposed to stand up for the less wealthy in our society.

The minimum wage was opposed tooth and nail by the Tories. It is one of the few genuinely progressive things New Labour did. The fact some employers are breaking the law and not paying it is no reason to damn the idea or the party that introduced it.

I have always voted Labour all my life. but have not done so for the last decade or so because of the reasons stated and never will again until the party returns to its roots as a true Labour Party not afraid of using the word Socialist!

With Corbyn in charge you have your wish.

We are going back to Victorian times and with most of the Labour Party MP's in Parliament out of touch with the people who elected them.

What? The Labour party was BORN in Victorian times with Keir Hardie the first MP in 1900 (having been elected before in 1892 as an independent).

A reason I think, why so many ordinary people voted to leave in the EU referendum as they saw it as the only way to stir things up and make the politicians listen to their concerns.

Maybe so but if so, that would be Turkey's voting for Christmas. It's about to deliver an even more right wing PM than we already had. Which is exactly what I said would happen before the vote.

Finally, it is no use saying that Corbyn is un-electable when politicians like Millibrand was no different on the moderate side.

If he is unelectable he's unelectable. It doesn't matter if Miliband was or not. Miliband isn't the labour leader and if Corbyn is viewed, as i believe he is, as Michael Foot MkII the fact he wants to make the party into what you think it should be is neither here nor there because it won't win an election.

Many of the Labour MP's think the way around this is to get rid of him and replace him with a New Labourite but not all of them. There are quite a few on the left of the party think he isn't up to the job either.

[DaveO]

I completely agree. I think one of the reasons why Labour has struggled to move the Overton Window back to the left is that it isn't necessarily their political opponents who were responsible for shifting it to the right - at least not overtly.

The right wing media monopoly has helped to shape public perception by drowning out dissenting voices and providing a platform for the propaganda of pressure groups such as the TaxPayers' Alliance. It's this type of pressure group, most of them founded and funded by Tory donors, Tory MP's or close associates of Tory MP's, masquerading as independent think tanks and purveyors of public opinion, who have managed to shift the Overton Window.

I think you are right but I think you may be underestimating the strength of the links between the media, pressure groups such as the Tax Payer's alliance and the Tory party.

The TPA and the airtime it gets is a very good case to mention. I have heard it quoted on BBC news on the radio as some sort of defacto authority, when Richard Murphy and his opposing Tax Research UK rarely gets a look in. I have been astonished the way the BBC entertains spokespeople from the TPA on Question Time and Newsnight. They are not government statisticians or civil servants but right wingers with an agenda.

It's hard for Labour to make a case against the established ideas when media organisations are now mostly hostile to them and determined to ensure public opinion mirrors the desires of a wealthy few. It's no surprise that many within Labour see a shift to the right as the only way to regain influence.

It is certainly true to say it's very hard to combat this and I am sure one reason why Corbyn IS seen as Michael Foot MkII is a concerted effort to discredit him.

However like Foot he makes it too easy. He has IMO too much baggage to fight back even if he had both Alistair Campbell and Lynton Crosby fighting his corner.

Labour can try and be more right wing to appeal to the establishment but they should know by now that drives their core support to parties like UKIP.

I think it's obvious why Corbyn was elected. Even Burnham lacked conviction in the eyes of the Labour membership. Tory Lite has had its day with Labour party members. Unfortunately the alternative doesn't seem capable of putting together an organisation that can help him combat the negative spin including from within his own MP's many of whom are still fully paid up Blairites.

I'd like to see a more charismatic and slick version of Corbyn. A very shallow thing to say no doubt but image is still everything in 2016 in many ways. The problem is even if such a person emerged from the left of the party the Hilary Benn's of this world would still fight him or her because they still believe in blairism.

I joined the Labour Facebook group last week and it is another world. I have never been active in a political party though I have been a Labour member for years just happy to contribute a few quid a month but reading posts of activists who live and breath the party is an eye opener.

There are now around 500K labour party members and most are believed to support Corbyn. Realism doesn't seem part of it. Suggest you like his policies but Labour needs a different leader to combat the Tories and you risk an on-line lynching.

[fozzieskem]

It all started when John Smith died

You ain't wrong at all the current party is an unelectable shambles,far worse than the Foot era party

[Owd Codger]

It all started when John Smith died

You ain't wrong at all the current party is an unelectable shambles,far worse than the Foot era party

And the rot started when Blair and his cronies made the party into New Labour and created a second Tory party to try to attract the middle class vote which has resulted in thousands of traditional Labour voters no long seeing it as the party they were brought up to believe in or no longer represents them and rather than vote for another party, don't vote at all.

Corbyn may be unelectable in the eyes of some, but the fact remains that he was elected by the membership of the party and not just the MP's as is the case within the Tory Party.

Many of the MP's in Parliament and indeed local Councils are out of touch with the people who elect them as is the case here in the Wigan area where our local MP's have not selected as candidates by members of the local parties, but have been told the have to have them by the HQ of the party.

Another reason I no longer vote Labour as I take exception to the HQ of the party telling local party members who they have to have as their candidate and no say in the matter.

[Wigan_forever1985]

Ive said before i think Alistair Campbells influence has been missed, like him or loathe him he is a very astute bloke and he knew how to get the ducks in a row and what the public wanted to hear. Him and blair working together was a very good team

The sad thing is the Tories have been ripped in 2 with this brexit fiasco yet labour are nowhere around to pick up the pieces instead they have pressed the self destruct button!

For me you could argue the demise of the labour Party started with Bliar - personally i dont think thats fair i think looking back at labour nostalgically as the working mans party, a party for the men down the pits is incorrect - the men arent down the pits anymore times have moved on for the better and the working mans party is reflecting that.

I think the issue started after Blair, electing brown was a mistake although i think he was a good PM he was not what is needed from a modern PM which is a strong character who can talk well. They then made an even bigger mistake by electing Ed over David, a man who sounded like a complete buffoon and was eaten alive in every debate regardless of the validity of his point.

Theyve now gone on to make a bigger mistake in Corbyn whom i had high hopes for but put it bluntly he doesnt want to play the game. Corbyn can speak well enough and is clever enough to take on DC but he never got drawn into the fight which gave DC the upper hand.

Again like him or loathe him DC was an excellent public speaker and that unfortunately is what the people want in a PM. They want someone who sounds good and looks the part. You may say that's not what people should look for and it isnt but the tories knew it and thats why they are in now and labour are rudderless

[Wandering Warrior]

And likely to remain rudderless and unelectable for the foreseeable future 1985.
Furthermore a big swing to the right is on the cards now whilst the country goes in search of the curly banana. May and Leadsom are both Thatcher kids and particularly Leadsom, who displays some rather odious views, despite being a committed Christian, fellow man and all that?
Let's hope Little England prevails with it's divided but fighting spirit?

[Owd Codger]

I completely agree. I think one of the reasons why Labour has struggled to move the Overton Window back to the left is that it isn't necessarily their political opponents who were responsible for shifting it to the right - at least not overtly.

The right wing media monopoly has helped to shape public perception by drowning out dissenting voices and providing a platform for the propaganda of pressure groups such as the TaxPayers' Alliance. It's this type of pressure group, most of them founded and funded by Tory donors, Tory MP's or close associates of Tory MP's, masquerading as independent think tanks and purveyors of public opinion, who have managed to shift the Overton Window.

I think you are right but I think you may be underestimating the strength of the links between the media, pressure groups such as the Tax Payer's alliance and the Tory party.

The TPA and the airtime it gets is a very good case to mention. I have heard it quoted on BBC news on the radio as some sort of defacto authority, when Richard Murphy and his opposing Tax Research UK rarely gets a look in. I have been astonished the way the BBC entertains spokespeople from the TPA on Question Time and Newsnight. They are not government statisticians or civil servants but right wingers with an agenda.

It's hard for Labour to make a case against the established ideas when media organisations are now mostly hostile to them and determined to ensure public opinion mirrors the desires of a wealthy few. It's no surprise that many within Labour see a shift to the right as the only way to regain influence.

It is certainly true to say it's very hard to combat this and I am sure one reason why Corbyn IS seen as Michael Foot MkII is a concerted effort to discredit him.

However like Foot he makes it too easy. He has IMO too much baggage to fight back even if he had both Alistair Campbell and Lynton Crosby fighting his corner.

Labour can try and be more right wing to appeal to the establishment but they should know by now that drives their core support to parties like UKIP.

I think it's obvious why Corbyn was elected. Even Burnham lacked conviction in the eyes of the Labour membership. Tory Lite has had its day with Labour party members. Unfortunately the alternative doesn't seem capable of putting together an organisation that can help him combat the negative spin including from within his own MP's many of whom are still fully paid up Blairites.

I'd like to see a more charismatic and slick version of Corbyn. A very shallow thing to say no doubt but image is still everything in 2016 in many ways. The problem is even if such a person emerged from the left of the party the Hilary Benn's of this world would still fight him or her because they still believe in blairism.

I joined the Labour Facebook group last week and it is another world. I have never been active in a political party though I have been a Labour member for years just happy to contribute a few quid a month but reading posts of activists who live and breath the party is an eye opener.

There are now around 500K labour party members and most are believed to support Corbyn. Realism doesn't seem part of it. Suggest you like his policies but Labour needs a different leader to combat the Tories and you risk an on-line lynching.

The Labour Party will never win a election as long as it tries to attract the middle class vote and deserts the traditional Labour voters like it has done since Blair was in charge.

In order to boost funds, the party allowed members of the public to have a vote by just paying just £3 and as a result, they elected a left wing Socialist in Corbyn.

The problem that Labour has now is that many of it's MP's and indeed Councillors would be better suited in the Tory Party as many of them are anything but Socialist.

[Wandering Warrior]

Winning an election is all about winning the middle class vote, given that the working man is his own worst enemy.
To put the record straight Tory members now get to vote when
it's down to two contenders. I'll be voting Leadsom!

[doc]

The last Tory woman PM was enough for a lifetime!

With Corbyn, half the problem is that he has surrounded himself with people from Momentum who run his office and prevent MPs from talking to him for fear that it will weaken their own influence.

No organisation or business can run without good and open communication up and down the line.