sallary cap

[Doveoverdave]

OK we may not have to abide by the RL rules on the salary cap according to European law, but the RL may not be obliged to invite us to play in their league and abide by their rules.
Catch 22

[Alex the Warrior]

Call me paranoid, but I honestly believe this club is being made to pay in every way possible for all the years of domination.

The salary cap was brought in to diable one club - Wigan, and the refereeing that we have to endure every single week cannot be a coincidence.

Sky want a level playing field for their money, but i'm not too concerned what they want. I've said for years that a legal challenge would end the cap. A challenge is many years overdue.

Maybe Leeds with their full houses and ability to win trophies might favour being able to send more. I bet Skinys would be against it though!

[DaveO]

Alex the Warrior posted:
Call me paranoid, but I honestly believe this club is being made to pay in every way possible for all the years of domination.

That same thought has crossed my mind on occasion!

Mond you if we mounted a legal challenge to the salary cap don't you think we would be made to pay even more?

The salary cap was brought in to diable one club - Wigan, and the refereeing that we have to endure every single week cannot be a coincidence.

The original 50% of income cap was in part down to ML.

I don't think the current flat rate cap does what people claim it does because when top players leave one top club they go to another top club so the idea it levels the playing field doesn't cut it with me. Wakefield can't afford to sign star players now any more then they could pre-flat rate salary cap.

That said it does give some security to prevent clubs over spending. The rule I detest is the 20/20 and I really do think that is a restraint of trade.

You want to pay 22 players more then 20K but still abide by the overall cap and you can't. Stupid.

The 20/20 is, I think, the brain child of Nigel Wood at the RFL. He used to he Halifax chairman until he deserted that sinking ship.

He also had bizaree idea like awarding a point to the side that was leading a game at half time!

So you can see why we have such a stupid rule.

Maybe Leeds with their full houses and ability to win trophies might favour being able to send more. I bet Skinys would be against it though!

Leeds are held up as the best example of managing the salary cap so I just can't see them being involved.

Dave

[thegimble]

Doveoverdave posted:
OK we may not have to abide by the RL rules on the salary cap according to European law, but the RL may not be obliged to invite us to play in their league and abide by their rules.
Catch 22

Its a catch 22 for the RFL too. What happens if Leeds and Wigan annd more than likely Bulls, Saints and Hull all say they want the cap gone and they kick all out of the competiton. What have they left. Virtually nothing. If they are not abiding by the European Law then the policy is illegal regardless of us being in it or not.

So let me put in another way.

If a large successful business that make a large profit be running at the same level as a small un profitable business. We should not be helping teams to catch us up.

What next o by the way Mr Anderson that Sculthorpe and Albert in your squad is too good for you they must go to Leigh. Oh Mr Smith by the way Sinfield and Mguire are making u too good they must go to Salford next season.

But by capping sides better players get dispursed around poorer teams. How can that be good for the competition. I ve said a while back the standard in SL is lower than it was 5 years ago. The bottom sides are better but the top sides are worse.

That might be an extreme view but that is what technically is happening at the moment. If we had an open wage policy then i bet you all we would be watching Sonny Bill Williams, Matt Orford and Adrian Morley next season. Instead we will be watching Martin Aspinwall and Kevin Brown.

So if you want the status quo to remain then stick with the policy that is getting us relegated possibly this season. Otherwise the club knows what to do for the future to get us back to where we were 2 years ago.

[thegimble]

DaveO posted:

Alex the Warrior posted:
Call me paranoid, but I honestly believe this club is being made to pay in every way possible for all the years of domination.

That same thought has crossed my mind on occasion!

Mond you if we mounted a legal challenge to the salary cap don't you think we would be made to pay even more?

The salary cap was brought in to diable one club - Wigan, and the refereeing that we have to endure every single week cannot be a coincidence.

The original 50% of income cap was in part down to ML.

I don't think the current flat rate cap does what people claim it does because when top players leave one top club they go to another top club so the idea it levels the playing field doesn't cut it with me. Wakefield can't afford to sign star players now any more then they could pre-flat rate salary cap.

That said it does give some security to prevent clubs over spending. The rule I detest is the 20/20 and I really do think that is a restraint of trade.

You want to pay 22 players more then 20K but still abide by the overall cap and you can't. Stupid.

The 20/20 is, I think, the brain child of Nigel Wood at the RFL. He used to he Halifax chairman until he deserted that sinking ship.

He also had bizaree idea like awarding a point to the side that was leading a game at half time!

So you can see why we have such a stupid rule.

Maybe Leeds with their full houses and ability to win trophies might favour being able to send more. I bet Skinys would be against it though!

Leeds are held up as the best example of managing the salary cap so I just can't see them being involved.

Dave

Leeds are now in a scenario where they need to spend on their squad as they have a few out on loan deals and let Botham go. They are starting to feel the pinch. Some of the Rhinos contracts are coming up for renewal and players will get better offers from the likes of Salford and Huddersfield. Also if the cap was not in place a certain Andrew Farrell would be playing in a Wigan shirt now as hed have been given a massive contract to secure his furute on. That what will kill SL off will be the drain to union. Faz is the first in a long line which will go to union. Rads has been linked again as has Carney and that is at Wigan it must be going on in all the clubs. Rogers, Sailor and Toquire all left the NRL to Union. Were going to be doing the same soon unless the cap gets kicked out. So if you want to watch second rate rugby stick with the system.

1 thing is certain the Cap has done nothing in closing the gap between us and the NRL all its done is brought most of SL to the same level. That actually sounds like a policy from a Communist doctrine. Odd. I thought we were in a free trade market.

[Doveoverdave]

the gimble posted:
Its a catch 22 for the RFL too

Do you know the meaning of this? The big clubs pullout and the league has nothing - what is left for the big clubs, no matches no (Sky)money.

But by capping sides better players get dispursed around poorer teams. How can that be good for the competition

By evening up the comp. in theory.

The bottom sides are better but the top sides are worse.

Answered above. Same as the game on Friday. A close fought game, but of a poor standard for elite RL.

So if you want the status quo to remain then stick with the policy that is getting us relegated

The policy is not responsible for the state the club finds itself in. Presumably all the SL clubs are abiding by the rules and our management within these rules has been poor and so the team is struggling.

You want to change all the rules because your team is doing it tough. In the name of sport lets abide by the rules and learn from mistakes and not blame every-thing or every-one within shouting distance for this poor season.

The pproblems are far closer to home.

[DaveO]

Doveoverdave posted:
You want to change all the rules because your team is doing it tough. In the name of sport lets abide by the rules and learn from mistakes and not blame every-thing or every-one within shouting distance for this poor season.

The pproblems are far closer to home.

I don't think you can generalise that the problems are all Wigan's fault or all down to the rules of the salary cap.

I think what is pretty obvious is that the rules have prevented us from strengthening the squad in the light of injures and could well be a contributory fact if the unthinkable happens and we go dowm.

The only thing that we can blame the club for is letting Farrell leave but at the time that happened those of us who said the club should hold him to his comtract were in a minority.

The squad pre-season looked competative there is no dounbt about that but with the loss of Farrell, Hock , Lockers and long term injuries to Carney and now David V and Rads I don't think any team faced with a similar problem could cope.

Wigan have been forced to use over 30 players this season and as to sticking by the rules what about the fact two teams go down this year to let a French side in?

If it was the useual one up one down no one would be worried but as it is the rules have changed for this season and may conspire against us.

Dave

[thegimble]

DaveO posted:

Doveoverdave posted:
You want to change all the rules because your team is doing it tough. In the name of sport lets abide by the rules and learn from mistakes and not blame every-thing or every-one within shouting distance for this poor season.

The pproblems are far closer to home.

I don't think you can generalise that the problems are all Wigan's fault or all down to the rules of the salary cap.

I think what is pretty obvious is that the rules have prevented us from strengthening the squad in the light of injures and could well be a contributory fact if the unthinkable happens and we go dowm.

The only thing that we can blame the club for is letting Farrell leave but at the time that happened those of us who said the club should hold him to his comtract were in a minority.

The squad pre-season looked competative there is no dounbt about that but with the loss of Farrell, Hock , Lockers and long term injuries to Carney and now David V and Rads I don't think any team faced with a similar problem could cope.

Wigan have been forced to use over 30 players this season and as to sticking by the rules what about the fact two teams go down this year to let a French side in?

If it was the useual one up one down no one would be worried but as it is the rules have changed for this season and may conspire against us.

Dave

If the cap is a restraint of trade then its an illegal policy.

Answer to DaveroverDave.

If the same rules apply to all other clubs please explain how the Broncos and other clubs but especially the Broncos have more foregin players in the club than most.

This is how i see it i have the money to spend but am restricted to buying a Ford Focus what i really want is a Ferrari.

The cap is the same as all the political correctnes crap that is going round at the moment. Not all teams are equal in the spending dept. but we all must behave the same. We bring in more money than practically all teams in SL yet we nust spend the same amount. Teams must not be able to spend beyond there means. Yet the Broncos do it and get away with it. Never mind the crap of we need a team in the capital. We do not they bring nothing to the game except a running lose and more foreigners than any club in the game.

The cap has also cost us Briscoe, Furner, Connolly, Craig Smith and a few we have had to let go because of it. Its easy and a cop out just to say we have only lost Faz we have had at least a dozen or more go.

The real threat will now come from Union if Faz succeds then excpect to see a host of top players go to union. Unless we have an equal footing in the trade market which we do not have at present.

Can you imagine Man U and Chelsea having to spend the same as Portsmouth on wages each season. Never going to happen isnt it.

If the rule does not change in the next year or so we will end up with an average league which does not do anything to the standard of the game.

If your happy watching the likes of players of the standard of Aspinwall, Brown, Wild and most of the team then fine let the cap stay in place.

Personally id rather watch Williams, Orford, Lockyer, Cayless and more WC players than the standard we have today and if that means we hammer teams and create a league where only 2-3 teams will win then so be it. Id rather that than the scenario that is coming where a team like Warrington in the next 2 seasons will win a trophy with an average squad.

[thegimble]

Doveoverdave posted:

the gimble posted:
Its a catch 22 for the RFL too

Do you know the meaning of this? The big clubs pullout and the league has nothing - what is left for the big clubs, no matches no (Sky)money.

But by capping sides better players get dispursed around poorer teams. How can that be good for the competition

By evening up the comp. in theory.

The bottom sides are better but the top sides are worse.

Answered above. Same as the game on Friday. A close fought game, but of a poor standard for elite RL.

So if you want the status quo to remain then stick with the policy that is getting us relegated

The policy is not responsible for the state the club finds itself in. Presumably all the SL clubs are abiding by the rules and our management within these rules has been poor and so the team is struggling.

You want to change all the rules because your team is doing it tough. In the name of sport lets abide by the rules and learn from mistakes and not blame every-thing or every-one within shouting distance for this poor season.

The pproblems are far closer to home.

Yes i want to change the rule as it is holding us back. The catch 22 for the RFL is if the top teams go there own way then they will miss us more than we miss them.

How do you think the Premiership came in to being. They left the Football league. And if most of the top teams would want to do that then who do you think would be the losers. Not the clubs. Sky would go with the big teams it always has.

The reason for changing the rules is that it is illegal. It will only take 1 club to change this. Fair enough if your happy with watching average teams palying each other week in week out with Eddie and Stevo attempting to persuade you its the best ever.

Truth is standards are dropping all over the place.

The Bulls team of 92-93 would win the SL comfartably and that says a lot about the game. Its going backwards. If union carries on taking players from SL then the quality will drop even more.

So therefore i take it that youd be happy for us to stuggle or even end up in NL 1 so long as the cap is in place. I look forward to the day we have a Hull v Warrington GF. Because that is the way we are heading eventually. They will get the best youngsteres that we and the Rhinos and other teams bring throughas the cap wiull force them out.

[Doveoverdave]

the gimble posted;
If the cap is a restraint of trade then its an illegal policy

Until proven legally there is no point discussing this further as we have both made our feelings known.

If the same rules apply to all other clubs please explain how the Broncos and other clubs but especially the Broncos have more foregin players in the club than most

The same rules, as regards salary, do apply to all clubs. Our pay masters at Sky have made trhe RL alter the rules for London as regards imports.

The real threat will now come from Union

Well diddums!
Union have a cap as well.
The threat from union has nothing to do with the cap and more to do with recognition and international oppurtunities. It's just a far bigger game.
Simple

Personally id rather watch Williams, Orford, Lockyer, Cayless and more WC players than the standard we have today

Again nothing to do with the cap. Recognition and international opprtunity once again.(See Carlos Spencer is to play for Northampton next season - now his internatonal aspirations have either been fulfilled or are over. Ge the drift?)

and create a league where only 2-3 teams will win

Leeds & Saints seemed to have managed this within the SAME budget that we have had to spend.

If your happy watching the likes of players of the standard of Aspinwall, Brown, Wild and most of the team then fine let the cap stay in place.

No I'm not. But these are the players that the management have seen fit to spend their budget on. The decisions have been made - live with it!