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mike binder posted:

Matthew posted:
For ease of reading I've cut down some of the quotes for fear of incurring the wrath of Jimmy!

Fraggle posted:
Sorry Matthew, that argument doesn't stand up at all. There are bizarre refereeing performances in every season, Klein last year wasn't on his own, and Sean Long will tell you it's not the first time that St Helens put out a weakened team around a Cup Final! Les Cats aren't the first team to benefit from these things, or would you also argue that some of Bradford's successes in recent years should be devalued because they've been lucky enough to play St Helens when the Saints left out almost an entire first team?

I think you missed my point. Despite having the aforementioned benefits - les cats STILL finished bottom. Would you have been happy if it had been us that was relegated instead of Castleford? The clubs apparently signed up to the agreement to protect the weakest team in the league from relegation - do you think that the vote would have been the same had it been put to the fans? Who after all provide the money and generate the media attention which attracts sponsors?

Fraggle posted:
That depends on your definition of stars. The English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish teams tend to include players from clubs at the bottom part of the league, or even NL1, but they are still international players even if they play for, say, Widnes. The French-born players at Les Catalans are mostly also French internationals, so if representing your country makes you a star then they meet the description.

As for Les Cats being a one-man team, how about Michael Dobson's contribution to their season last year...?

Dobson showed talent at les cats - however he couldn't (and didn't) change the course of their season. It was only when he came to Wigan that he had a sufficient number of quality players around him to really make a difference.

I would define "Stars" in RL as someone who captures the imagination and by their playing encourages youngsters to get involved in the game. No disrespect to them - but I don't see many "stars" in the French National team.

Fraggle posted:
Isn't the league organisation called Superleague (Europe) Limited? So why the obsession with helping GB or English players?

SL Europe is a business - just like Microsoft or Walmart. Their interest is making money for themselves and share holders - they are not a charitable concern.

I am English (and British) and that is why I am obsessed with helping GB players.

Fraggle posted:
That's not the sole purpose of our league, and indeed the international teams come under the remit of the RFL, not Superleague, so it should be up to the RFL to try and improve the situation as much as, if not more, than the league. Petty distinction, perhaps, but they are two seperate organisations with different roles in our sport.

However I don't see the NRL trying to encourage the game in Tonga by allowing them a team into the NRL; or Somoa for that reason. The South Sea Islands are far more rugby orientated than the round ball purists of france.

Fraggle posted:
SL(E)'s primary aim will be to try to get the best spectacle they can, and that doesn't necessary involve what's best for GB, England, traditional RL areas etc.

As I stated above, I believe that SL(E)'s principal concern is money and that definitely has nothing to do with anything else

Fraggle posted:
And the reality is our sport struggles to get sponsors for its major competitions (Challenge Cup now being sponsored by a university?!) so money is an important issue.

Other sponsors were on the table for the CC. The RFL chose Leeds Uni.

Fraggle posted:
It's not really any different to any other sport - in soccer there's the issue about the number of English clubs in the European Champions League. In the old days, only the Champions were allowed to partake, which seemed very sensible to me, but some of the big clubs who didn't qualify for a few years wanted more money so the competition was changed to allow several clubs from the major leagues, including non-Champions which to me makes a mockery of a "Champions" league but it's worth too much financially to the clubs to get them to change.

The last place we need to copy ideas is from football - which is the most money obsessed sport in the world - $250 million for a player past his best for a team that wouldn't get into the first division (or whatever it is called this week) over here - lunacy!

Fraggle posted:
Our sport needs the money as much as any other sport, we will disappear if we don't especially in a media climate where even our appalling record in cricket and rugby union, tennis failures and boxers with more money than sense all get far more coverage than anything that happens in rugby league. It's a long time since sport was just about winners and losers!

Why do the clubs "need" the money? Nearly every team in SL spent the maximum amount allowed by the salary cap - so where does the additional revenue go? Thanks to the cap and 20/20 rule it is slowly being taken out of the academy sides. Even Wigan are starting to jettison young players and use established pros.

If SL were really that concerned about the game then they would relax the ridiculous financial restrictions that they place on players wages. No-one is suggesting we return to the old days - however the current situation will ensure that less and less young players are developed here.

I fail to see the difference in importing French players or importing Aussie/Kiwi ones?

Despite all this I can't see RL "disappearing" any time soon. Attendences are up and there is a core of clubs in the heartland of the sport that are doing very well. I don't see what is so wrong with the RL "heartlands"? Why do expansionists look down their noses at them? They are a place where there is pride and passion about the sport. RL is lucky to have well behaved and good spirited fans (for the most part).

Like I said, if it were up to the fans there probably wouldn't be one french team in SL - never mind 2 and at the end of the day without any fans there definitely WON'T be any money or sponsorship

is this the longest post in history