Coley confirmed

[DaveO]

butt monkey posted:

DaveO posted:
I think a lot of what gets posted about academy players being disgruntled is coming from people with their own agenda and even some of the players themselves.
Dave

My sentiments exactly Dave.

Last season there were lots of posts on rlfans about this subject and they were very similar to those we have seen on here. Remarkably so IMO so this makes me a bit suspicious.

Dave

[Mike]

DaveO posted:

GeoffN posted:
True, up to a point, but the real problem is that our "high-priced stars", with the exception of Barrett, haven't been giving value for money.
If the players on comparable wages to Barrett had been delivering the goods as Barrett has, we wouldn't be complaining.

Looking at it the other way, if we hadn't paid out a big salary for Barrett, we'd be a lot lower than we are right now.

Relegated is my guess.

Looking back a few years, our high priced stars were Farrell & Radlinski & Newton; where would we have been without them in, say, 2002, when we last won the CC?

As DaveO has already pointed out, every club needs a handful of top-class players to compete at the highest level. Our problem has been paying top-class wages to mediocre players.

Well I am glad someone else can see it. It isn't the wages we pay to top class payers that is the problem provided they perform. If they don't perform that doesn't mean we should never sign a top class player on top class wages again.

Dave

I think our mistake in this respect has been that the desire to sign star player has overridden the fact that there haven't always been this class of player available. The DV situation was precipitated by us missing out on Gasnier. Rather than take stock, evaluate our options and maybe split the money to get two other good solid players, we splashed effectively the same money on the next player we found. Some seasons the conditions may not be right to recruit a star. Instead of signing a dubious player on star money, we should use those years to ensure that when a player we really need becomes available we are in a position to get him and put him in a team with solid players around him. Its the clubs desire to have something to talk up. Its the Lindsay style to be in the entertainment business with names that can be talked up to attract the crowds.

If we don't sign the star prop/fullback/centre we need this season, then we surely should aim to be in a position at the start of recruiting next year to go get one. We've been in a financial mess for ages through going for the knee-jerk big-money high profile deal when conditions weren't right, I'd rather gain a bit of stability and build a core that you can add a couple of future stars too. For once, we've got to start building a team - something that has been said by the board for years but has never happened.

For those reasons, I don't think Coley is so bad of a signing even if the star players don't follow this year. Whether he weakens or strengthens the side over Fletcher is a debatable point, but he is going to be a core squad player and I think he will do a good job of that.

As to the prop/fullback/centre situation, we can only sign the players that are available and want a move. The only other way is to make them want a move by offering them "Wigan" wages. Lets not do that - we'll may be counting the cost for years - again. (Unless its Jamie Lyon - sign him.)

[thegimble]

butt monkey posted:

thegimble posted:
I agree and some were not even fist choice. Moran, DV were not the original player we chased.

Wigan and St Helens were (I believe), to be the only two SL clubs seriously chasing DV at the time.

Unfortunately, Wigan won the chase.

St Helens, decided to open negotiations with a retired former Australian test centre - Jamie Lyons. The rest is history. Although I did hear that Lyons was on a fraction of DV's wage - somewhere in the region of £70k a season!

We were after Gasnier at the time and he decided to stay as ST George it was only then we went for DV.

[thegimble]

DaveO posted:

thegimble posted:

So you saying Noble is not good at recruting players.

He can recruit players. What I am saying is I am not impressed with who he has recruited.

Filden, Dobson were 2 he bought in.

Did he? I am not convinced that was all his own work given the timing but it doesn't matter in the context of this discussion. Dobbo has gone and so even if he was responsible for Fielden what about the others? Are they or have they been any good?

His hands were tied last season due to deffered payments which killed him in getting 2 more players. You seem to have forgotten that. and we were in such a bad situation no player apart from the done deals before May that year would sign.

You can't get away form the fact he signed Withers and Millard when everyone pre-season said we needed a replacement for Logan.

We may well have been strapped for cash but he spent what little we had the wrong way.

He now said himself we were light in the front row.

Is that with hindsight on his part? Well he could have come on here for a bit of foresight couldn't he?

Yes sides are gettting star players. King in Warrington but they are letting a few go and they will suffer just as we did a few season ago. Same at HKR theyll sign 2-3 players but will lose a few more.

Saints dont do this they get players rejects such as Hargraves decent enogh player, never a superstar. they type we need to balance a squad in terms of the cap.

Hargreaves is not a 1st 17 player. We have those already. (e.g. Prescott). What we lack is first grade players within the 1st 17. Saints do not.

Wolves, Warriors, Leeds, Bulls and few more have signed more high profile players in recent years than Saints but they get better value for money. We need to follow that style rather than get 1-3 star players and have a small squad of real quality. If it were not for the high priced stars wed not have released so many over the last few years and totally destablise the squad.

I do not believe that to be the case. I think if the players we have signed who are supposed to be stars had lived up to their reputations we would be very happy. I am also convinced we have not released anyone who you could not justify releasing given the 20/25.

Saints may not have signed many stars recently but they don't need to because they are already on their books.

Dave

The timing of Filden and Dobson was well into Nobles stint with us. If Nobby was not here wed still be looking for NL1 players like Milward was doing or have you forgotten that. Filden is doing more work in the side than anyother player. Most dont see the defencive effort he puts in.

Yes we needed props but he was not going to sign a player on a 2-3 year deal that he did not want. He tried to sign a prop but he stayed at his present club.

we lack first grade players as we have been in effective in recruting well over a number of years. Moran, Milard, DV. Also the develop[ment of the Academy players is not as good as we belive. Weve yet to bring one truly World Class player through in a very long time. Hock is about the best of them even he has been poor at times this season.

Were struggling for a good side due to poor judgemnets over the last 5-6 years not down to 1 man recruting half way through last season.

[gpartin]

Mike posted:

DaveO posted:

GeoffN posted:
True, up to a point, but the real problem is that our "high-priced stars", with the exception of Barrett, haven't been giving value for money.
If the players on comparable wages to Barrett had been delivering the goods as Barrett has, we wouldn't be complaining.

Looking at it the other way, if we hadn't paid out a big salary for Barrett, we'd be a lot lower than we are right now.

Relegated is my guess.

Looking back a few years, our high priced stars were Farrell & Radlinski & Newton; where would we have been without them in, say, 2002, when we last won the CC?

As DaveO has already pointed out, every club needs a handful of top-class players to compete at the highest level. Our problem has been paying top-class wages to mediocre players.

Well I am glad someone else can see it. It isn't the wages we pay to top class payers that is the problem provided they perform. If they don't perform that doesn't mean we should never sign a top class player on top class wages again.

Dave

I think our mistake in this respect has been that the desire to sign star player has overridden the fact that there haven't always been this class of player available. The DV situation was precipitated by us missing out on Gasnier. Rather than take stock, evaluate our options and maybe split the money to get two other good solid players, we splashed effectively the same money on the next player we found. Some seasons the conditions may not be right to recruit a star. Instead of signing a dubious player on star money, we should use those years to ensure that when a player we really need becomes available we are in a position to get him and put him in a team with solid players around him. Its the clubs desire to have something to talk up. Its the Lindsay style to be in the entertainment business with names that can be talked up to attract the crowds.

If we don't sign the star prop/fullback/centre we need this season, then we surely should aim to be in a position at the start of recruiting next year to go get one. We've been in a financial mess for ages through going for the knee-jerk big-money high profile deal when conditions weren't right, I'd rather gain a bit of stability and build a core that you can add a couple of future stars too. For once, we've got to start building a team - something that has been said by the board for years but has never happened.

For those reasons, I don't think Coley is so bad of a signing even if the star players don't follow this year. Whether he weakens or strengthens the side over Fletcher is a debatable point, but he is going to be a core squad player and I think he will do a good job of that.

As to the prop/fullback/centre situation, we can only sign the players that are available and want a move. The only other way is to make them want a move by offering them "Wigan" wages. Lets not do that - we'll may be counting the cost for years - again. (Unless its Jamie Lyon - sign him.)

Great post, don't think much needs adding to that!

[DaveO]

thegimble posted:
The timing of Filden and Dobson was well into Nobles stint with us. If Nobby was not here wed still be looking for NL1 players like Milward was doing or have you forgotten that. Filden is doing more work in the side than anyother player. Most dont see the defencive effort he puts in.

Yes we needed props but he was not going to sign a player on a 2-3 year deal that he did not want. He tried to sign a prop but he stayed at his present club.

Did he? But whatever the case the fact remians Withers and Millard are rubbish signings and had he put those wages to those he was going to give this prop you say he tried to sign, perhaps he could have got a prop in Logan's class - not someone he didn't want at the club.

Noble screwed up on player recruitment last season and so the jury is still out on his recruitment for me.

we lack first grade players as we have been in effective in recruting well over a number of years. Moran, Milard, DV. Also the develop[ment of the Academy players is not as good as we belive. Weve yet to bring one truly World Class player through in a very long time. Hock is about the best of them even he has been poor at times this season.

Were struggling for a good side due to poor judgemnets over the last 5-6 years not down to 1 man recruiting half way through last season.

He recruited Withers and Millard for this season and they are Nobles players so his fault we ended up with them.

The squad would have been far better served with him recruiting just one experienced prop instead of those two.

Dave

[jaws1]

And Flanagan

[chrisJJ]

DaveO posted:
He recruited Withers and Millard for this season and they are Nobles players so his fault we ended up with them.

The squad would have been far better served with him recruiting just one experienced prop instead of those two.

Dave

Withers would have been class if fit and if ashton had stayed, i think he did a lot to help the team and just because he got injured dnt mean he's a waste of money it can happen to any player at any time.

Millard's been good he's calmed the ruck down which means that when higham plays its a completely different game, last seasons we've had two speedy hookers in higham and godwin* millard's been playin a much more controlled role and given higham the freedom to rome when on the field.

both were good signings both of them got injured mid season and that's not their fault nor noble's its a fact of sport, injuries happen.

*godwin's leaving hull! get the lad signed up!!! the lad needs get out of yorkshire Bradford or where ever!

[DaveO]

chrisJJ posted:

DaveO posted:
He recruited Withers and Millard for this season and they are Nobles players so his fault we ended up with them.

The squad would have been far better served with him recruiting just one experienced prop instead of those two.

Dave

Withers would have been class if fit and if ashton had stayed, i think he did a lot to help the team and just because he got injured dnt mean he's a waste of money it can happen to any player at any time.

Withers took up an 20/25 slot and while Noble could not have predicted he would have to retire to suggest a player who had to retire leaving us a man down is not a waste of money is very strange.

We also needed a prop more than we needed him so he should never have been signed in the first place IMO. The same goes for Millard. That was a mistake by Noble regardless of how good these two turned out to be.

The fact Withers retired and Millard is awful just compounds the midstake.

Millard's been good he's calmed the ruck down which means that when higham plays its a completely different game, last seasons we've had two speedy hookers in higham and godwin* millard's been playin a much more controlled role and given higham the freedom to rome when on the field.

"Millard has been good"? He is the worst signing in the last decade, even worse than DV. Hehasn't been good at all.

"calmed the ruck down". What does that mean? Are you trying to find an excuse that he does everything too slow?

"playing a much more controlled role"? Is he heck.

I am sorry but if you think Millard has been good you do not know anything about the game. He has no pace, his passing is so slow his gets his props smashed by the defence and that is if he manages to hit the target and not pass it to their feet or at their head. he is technically poor and he is physically passed it.

He is one of the worst players I have ever seen in the c&w.

both were good signings both of them got injured mid season and that's not their fault nor noble's its a fact of sport, injuries happen.

Absolute rubbish. No way were they good signings. If you think the tone is a bit harsh its simply because your opinion on these two players, especially Millard, does not have any relation to the truth of the matter.

Why you think this I really do not know. Is it because you feel you have to defend Noble? Or you must defend any player in the c&w from criticism?

It certainly can't be based on any rational evaluation of the players.

Dave

[butt monkey]

DaveO posted:
We also needed a prop more than we needed him so he should never have been signed in the first place IMO. The same goes for Millard. That was a mistake by Noble regardless of how good these two turned out to be.

Dave

I understand that Mickey Higham is a chronic asthmatic, which does effect his ability to play a full 80 minutes, something I understand he has not been able to do under his playing career with Stains and us (not sure about Leigh either, but that was when he was much younger anyways).

Understanding this, meant that Noble obviously felt the necessity to move for an alternative, once Godwin was released.

How could he have foreseen the possible impact of McLorum so soon after arriving?

His decision to move for Millard was flawed, but what other hookers were available at the right price? - assuming Millard accepted a lower contract than Godwin was on, and in order for Wigan to remain under the Salary Cap, including the now defunct deferred payments, for this season.