Fans Forum - Status quo, No change

[cpwigan]

No it makes you a fan remember what I said being a fan makes us behave illogically. That is the passion/the love if you want to call it that. I said 90%, if you want to be part of that 10% then great. The day those % are reversed the better.

The salary cap precludes investment in players.

Investment in the coaching staff is free from that restraint.

IL has plenty of money

Is it better to pay for world class coaching staff or ham n eggers like we currently have? it's not rocket science. I am not belittle people. There is a quote that goes something along the lines of the only person that can make you feel inferior is yourself.

Are you a houseowner? do you have a mortgage? do you have a car? do you pay for it monthly? We improve our lives by borrowing money to make an immediate difference on the basis we pay it back over the long term. That is all I am saying. IL can pontificate re his seven deadly sins all night but it makes no difference unless he takes immediate action.

If you have a life threatening disease/illness the faster you recognise it/deal with the greater your chance of success. So we can sit around and wait or IL can be bold and kill the problem before its gets worse.

To me it's a no brainer. To Barbara and Jenette and the 90% I am evil, the bogey man, the Yorkshire Ripper. That is their problem. Not mine.

[gpartin]

Is it really necessary to quote the same post so manytimes in one thread? It just took me 10 minute to get to the bottom of the page!

[El Bobbers]

So tell me again CPW, why haven't you got the millions he has? I take it it's because you are all talk? Do you spend to much time spouting rubbish and criticising those who have different opinions of you?

You seem to be very good at telling everybody how to do there job so why aren't you a professional coach? You are none of the things you claim to know so much about! You accuse IL of talking a good game and say talk is cheap but you don't seem to do much else?

Seems to me you have many of the traits you accuse IL of but without the success?

Tell me wouldn't you expect Burgess to tackle? Or SBW? LuLu puts in plenty of big hits at half there size but he doesn't have shoulder problems is this because he wasn't subjected to such impact so often at such a young age?

[butt monkey]

CP and I have had our "little disagreements" on here from time to time (remember the Joe Westerman thread - were I originally criticized junior players "preferring going on the lash" instead of being proper pro's and abstaining etc) This point has arisen again a few times of late! And still irks me as far as how juniors want to develop and how much effort and sacrifice they themselves are prepared to commit to, without the necessity of the club to act like "childminders" to each and every one of them.

However, I have to admit, that despite very good arguments to the contrary, CPW is right on this issue. Despite his obvious annoyance at cutting short his break to attend what he felt "a predetermined and set up forum"

I understand that IL is unusual for a Chairman to "listen" to fans and "answer" their questions. But unless he really listens and makes changes, then disillusionment will set in.

I do not expect a "quick fix" nor endless money "on tap" from IL for players of staff. The recruitment has to be done right for both players AND back room staff at the right price, and (perhaps most important of all) for the available people (you cannot simply "do a Real Madrid" and force clubs to "cow-tow" to Wigan). But changes do need to be made. The future of the club is for it to "stand on it's own feet", with financial independence from its owner and a healthy profit to show for it. Jack Walker, for all his love of Blackburn and money spent, left it struggling since his sad passing away. Hopefully this has been started by IL and will see the club's future and fortunes improve.

BN was signed to replace Millward, his sole purpose for want of better words, was to avoid relegation. This was achieved with the players at his disposal. This side though, at the moment, is not one bit better than that side from 3 years ago (could even be said to be worse). If the players would not "play for IM", which saw Wigan slip to the foot of the table, why are they now not playing consistently for Noble?

On a footnote to that CPW, would you consider ex-coaches that might be available - Chris Anderson, Phil Gould etc?

To say that some fans "live in the past" might be true, yet surely the same can be said for players living in the shadows of former great players. This imo is true at Wigan, with some clearly average players being afforded "star" status. This they are not and never were. The all round attitude must improve, as must their in-game efforts. My concept of strengthening the side is tempered by the need to reduce the reliance on overseas. I want this to happen, but I am not sure it ever can with the current line-up of players at the moment. I think the club is right to bring in the likes of Phelps, yet not at the total expense of progression of worthy players from the ranks, it must be in tandem.

Excuses are often afforded players, like Amy Winehouse and her bunch of "cronies", yet she herself will eventually be the perpetrator of her own downfall, as such, the players should recognise that the "buck stops" with them, and there quoted failing mentality, or shock at being booed at the Huddersfield game (Christ, whatever next? - scared to go to KR for fear of being called "you're not famous anymore" at?!! :sly: ) it is a weak and for me, pathetic insult to my intelligence for mature professional athletes, if that's what they are!

IL, I think is no mug, if he reads this sort of web forum and others, he will galvanise public opinion and also understand it. I do not expect him to run any club or business for or on my behalf, so do not expect this type of fan's forum to make any "real difference", but to afford fans the opportunity to "think that there voice is important" in the whole structure of Super League. What is wrong with that, for a club that wasted a squad number on the fans? Nothing, but IL will not buy players and alter staff for the sake of appeasing anyone.

We are all loyal and caring fans that expect, nay demand the best. Whether we get this with Noble in charge is debatable. But for the moment, we can await the squad for Friday's fixture and hope that all this talk is not just that from the players and staff.

[cpwigan]

So tell me again CPW, why haven't you got the millions he has? I take it it's because you are all talk? Do you spend to much time spouting rubbish and criticising those who have different opinions of you?

You seem to be very good at telling everybody how to do there job so why aren't you a professional coach? You are none of the things you claim to know so much about! You accuse IL of talking a good game and say talk is cheap but you don't seem to do much else?

Seems to me you have many of the traits you accuse IL of but without the success?

Tell me wouldn't you expect Burgess to tackle? Or SBW? LuLu puts in plenty of big hits at half there size but he doesn't have shoulder problems is this because he wasn't subjected to such impact so often at such a young age?

Dear Dear dear. I will do this only once and I should not have to nor do I want to but hey ho.

Firstly I never ever believe you judge people on their material wealth. You can either believe me or not (it matters not to me) but I have known enough wealthy people in my life incl millionaires etc to know that generally the wealthy are not as decent, honourable,likeable as the average man or woman. To accrue wealth most people have had to be single minded, selfish and rufeless. Bar stewards even if they did not want to be.

Me I am as ordinary as everybody else. Why do I not have millions in the banks. Firstly I have no desire to. I am working class, half my family were miners the other half worked in textile mills. My parents made sacrifices and put their children first. Their son became the first family university entrant. He had this sense of vocation so he opted to work in the public sector. He followed the usual educational path teaching children to become exam monkeys, managing departments and being successful. His real success was not those exam results it was far more important. He decided he wanted to make a real difference so he now works with a special % of children in education. The undesireables, the ones that society has written off and he puts everything into rather successfully making a difference.

Money lol I worked with a child that had spent 48 hours in the dark because the family had no money for the meter. She asked could she borrow £10. I gave it to her. When a child is hungry I buy that child a meal. I pay out of my own money to take children on trips because it makes their lives better amidst the squalor filth and crap they have to put up with. I furnish houses.

My family, I gave them money. I returned a miniscule part of the 'debt' I owed them as we all owe our parents / families.

So yes I practice what I preach and yes I worked my behind off for it and because I believe in it. I can play top trumps and say youngest ever manager, most children taught in a subject by a teacher in that subject in Lancashire in a single year, helped working class children to go to Oxford/Cambridge/Price Charles old Scottish school and all that nonsense.

Yes every day I work I stand up and fight for what I believe in and I say what I believe which believe me is not the done thing the higher up you go.

Sport lol. Members of my family have been honoured by a variety of people for their services to youths / sports. Mainly football. My father was one of the best sportsmen in Wigan, renowned. The whole family is steeped in sport. Me. I was half decent, being left sided helps. I was an outstanding captain/leader/great tactical know how. I understand sport fro a very deep level. Have I coached yes a little, more often than not I have increased participation. Would I coach now? No Have you seen how poorly community coaches are paid? Money is not my God but I am not stupid. If community coaches were paid properly then you would have ex leading pros as coaches and a better standard of RL. I gave sport away to follow my vocation.

All the above bullshit I will probably delete later as it is personal to me and to be frank nobody else's business but it just clears up some ludicrous misconceptions. So next time you want to aim, try something else because I earned whatever I have done through hard graft and I practice what I preach by making a real difference.

[cpwigan]

CP and I have had our "little disagreements" on here from time to time (remember the Joe Westerman thread - were I originally criticized junior players "preferring going on the lash" instead of being proper pro's and abstaining etc) This point has arisen again a few times of late! And still irks me as far as how juniors want to develop and how much effort and sacrifice they themselves are prepared to commit to, without the necessity of the club to act like "childminders" to each and every one of them.

However, I have to admit, that despite very good arguments to the contrary, CPW is right on this issue. Despite his obvious annoyance at cutting short his break to attend what he felt "a predetermined and set up forum"

I understand that IL is unusual for a Chairman to "listen" to fans and "answer" their questions. But unless he really listens and makes changes, then disillusionment will set in.

I do not expect a "quick fix" nor endless money "on tap" from IL for players of staff. The recruitment has to be done right for both players AND back room staff at the right price, and (perhaps most important of all) for the available people (you cannot simply "do a Real Madrid" and force clubs to "cow-tow" to Wigan). But changes do need to be made. The future of the club is for it to "stand on it's own feet", with financial independence from its owner and a healthy profit to show for it. Jack Walker, for all his love of Blackburn and money spent, left it struggling since his sad passing away. Hopefully this has been started by IL and will see the club's future and fortunes improve.

BN was signed to replace Millward, his sole purpose for want of better words, was to avoid relegation. This was achieved with the players at his disposal. This side though, at the moment, is not one bit better than that side from 3 years ago (could even be said to be worse). If the players would not "play for IM", which saw Wigan slip to the foot of the table, why are they now not playing consistently for Noble?

On a footnote to that CPW, would you consider ex-coaches that might be available - Chris Anderson, Phil Gould etc?

To say that some fans "live in the past" might be true, yet surely the same can be said for players living in the shadows of former great players. This imo is true at Wigan, with some clearly average players being afforded "star" status. This they are not and never were. The all round attitude must improve, as must their in-game efforts. My concept of strengthening the side is tempered by the need to reduce the reliance on overseas. I want this to happen, but I am not sure it ever can with the current line-up of players at the moment. I think the club is right to bring in the likes of Phelps, yet not at the total expense of progression of worthy players from the ranks, it must be in tandem.

Excuses are often afforded players, like Amy Winehouse and her bunch of "cronies", yet she herself will eventually be the perpetrator of her own downfall, as such, the players should recognise that the "buck stops" with them, and there quoted failing mentality, or shock at being booed at the Huddersfield game (Christ, whatever next? - scared to go to KR for fear of being called "you're not famous anymore" at?!! :sly: ) it is a weak and for me, pathetic insult to my intelligence for mature professional athletes, if that's what they are!

IL, I think is no mug, if he reads this sort of web forum and others, he will galvanise public opinion and also understand it. I do not expect him to run any club or business for or on my behalf, so do not expect this type of fan's forum to make any "real difference", but to afford fans the opportunity to "think that there voice is important" in the whole structure of Super League. What is wrong with that, for a club that wasted a squad number on the fans? Nothing, but IL will not buy players and alter staff for the sake of appeasing anyone.

We are all loyal and caring fans that expect, nay demand the best. Whether we get this with Noble in charge is debatable. But for the moment, we can await the squad for Friday's fixture and hope that all this talk is not just that from the players and staff.

We debate BM and your a cracking adversary. we have the odd difference but we usually use reasoning.

Anderson? No. His stint at Sydney City showed that if you stay out of the loop too long you never catch up. So his stint was a disaster and Fittler who in many ways was a lesser but more up to date coach has fared far better.

Gould I think is one of the greatest RL minds on this planet. He has no desire to coach. As a mentor / a consultant great. However, his views on British coaches / Sl probably make him unpalatable to IL and co. He would boot Noble for example given he was incredibly critical of him as GB coach.

And your right re drinking / professionalism. Shaun Edwards / Ellery Hanley are the gold standard for me. I was privelleged to work with Sam Tomkins and some others. The reason he is where he is is sheer dedication but for every Sam T there are dozens who could have beens.

[cpwigan]

CP I don't know you but I do question your reasoning. I undersand your frustration BUT in this thread I have yet to read anything positive towards the club. You seem to have a real problem with Ian Lenegan. However, not everyone shares your view, that does not make them idiots. You refer to our clubs great history. Unfortunately that is what it is -history. We are dealing with the here and now. Whilst we believe we are the greatest club in the game our history will not get us out of this mess. We do not have a devine right to win. No one can take away from the club what past teams have achieved but that is not going to help us here. I believe that 99.9% of the people that post on here have wigan in their blood and just because they happen to disagree with your opinion does not make them morons. I think the least you can do is give the new board a chance (in that I mean more than the 6 months they have had). I don't see what good you protoesting and ranting on here is doing except for winding yourself and other people up. We all pay the same as you to watch the debacle we have witnessed of late and we all wish to see wonderful flowing rugby with fantastic wins especially over Saints but more particularly over mediocre teams like Huddersfield. Invest your energy in backing the players and management or would you prefer we go back to Whelan and Lindsay? I am not clever with words in the same way you are and you will probably come on here and rip me to shreds but I know that come Friday night I will be there to cheer the players on and off the pitch and just hope that we have something to cheer about.

RHM it is important not to even bother with the history. It's gone, in the past what I was referring to is how it makes Wigan RLFC special. That special place only remains if we maintain our cycle of regular periodic success. It is about here and now!

The true value of history is to learn from it.

Whenever this club has sat back and patted itself on the back things have slipped. The 70's, the SL era, even part of the 60's.

The departure of Whelan and Lindsay was so welcomed by so many fans that IMO that complacency that was evident in the 70's, to some extent through SL returned. When somebody is so hated their replacement gets a free ride. Their has to be balance and if I see something I disagree with I will speak up and challenge it. Barbara and Jeanette posting feel good letters every week in the WEP is not the way. I had no respect for Whelan. Lindsay was a double edged sword. His first stint you cannot do anything other than praise him. The second stint, not great. Mike Gregory was the low ebb for me.

It is your choice. I hope you did not cheer them off v Hudds? I personally could not sing your not fit to wear the shirt but those who did will get no criticism from me.

Praise has to be earned. I personally see little that IL has done thus far that deserves praise. I did praise the appointment of Hogan in this thread.

It is never personal. I do not know IL so you cannot hate the man. I think he has made a grave error by supporting Noble but that is his choice. if he is proved right he can come to my house and say whatever he likes and I will hold my hands up and say he got it right. I am confident that it will not work out though. Successful GF winning coaches in SL in recent years are Australian / NRL coaches not British. Daniel Anderson is on a different level to Brian Noble. It is a harsh statement but he is not fit to lick his boots. Wigan have been successful with Australian / NRL Coaches.

I want Wigan to be great but I will not be blinded by my loyalty.

I do not think I ripped you to shreds. Hope not and yes I may be able to write fancy but I have a broad Wigan accent and the rest of world can go to hell before I change it.

[jaws1]

I think the best we could do is wait and see what happens and then we can slate the coach/players/board on this.They have highlighted the problems at least give them chance to fix it..The board have now aknowledged this and plans are in place to remedy it so at least let them give them a chance. In the past i have posted on here that we are not fit etc and have said sack Noble.Its obvious that things are not going to change overnight and with JL now in place as the Playing Director or whatever you call him and the emphasis on getting us more fitter and skillful its a waiting game only time will tell /
And before you say anything CP i am not a Riversider i went into the forum hoping that Noble would be sacked but my views changed when all the facts were known.I dont think Noble and IL has got off scot free with me they knew the implications and never reacted to them fan power changed it for me made the Players/Coach/Board sit up and realise all is not well at the club.
Time will tell

[weststand-rich]

Ohh. It's decended into class warfare.

This post is the most interesting we've had all season, and that perhaps is the problem. If all we can concentrate on is this, then that illustrates our problems.

Frustrations all round I think.

[GeoffN]

I'm enjoying this debate, as someone who probably stands somewhere in between the two "extremes". I agree with Mike, though - lets keep personalities out of this and just address the arguments, not the people!

As most of you know, by now, I'm usually a "glass half-full" person when it comes to Wigan - although that optimism has been severely dented recently. I initially voted to give Noble more time, when that poll was first set up, and although I haven't really changed my mind, the time I'm prepared to allow him has gone down.

It remains to be seen whether the "talk" that the players had will have any effect - we'll find that out on Friday, and the other 4 games left. In any case, this season's pretty much a write-off; we aren't going to get to the GF from 5th or 6th. Results now are less important than performances, and if nothing gets dramatically better for the next 5 or 6 games I suspect we've seen the last of Noble, despite IL's support.

As far as finances go, I think IL has a valid case. It seems clear that a lot of potential sponsorship was lost to the club under DW (especially the JJB income), and that takes time to rectify. In any case, although increased turnover is, of course, important, I don't see that getting an 'A' licence in itself is all that important - any 'A' or 'B' club will be safe in SL, it's all the 'C's that need to improve.